Manufacturing Process of the Black Hole AR Barrels

[Deleted]

My question is can you tell us a bit more about your manufacturing process and how a black hole would compare to a Noveske in precision and type of alloy?

Please be specific. I cannot imagine anything more accurate than the 16" 308w BHW barrel that I got. I want to order another one in 20" but I also want to know if that accuracy is going to last.


I'm not sure that's entirely accurate. Found this on another forum. Interview with John Noveske. (read below)

"Our stainless barrels are made partially in ourshop and partially in Pac-Nor’s shop. And, the relationship that I have with Pac-Nor…I used to work there, and now what’s goin’ on is I buy steel, I take it to Pac-Nor, when the guys clock out of Pac-Nor, they clock into our barrel production. They machine my blanks with our tooling, which is all made to our design, including the drills, reamers, button, so forth, so on. They stress-relieve to our recipe, and then they give the barrels back to us, and then we finish them all in our shop.

Let me back up. You can’t call the barrel that we make a Pac-Nor barrel, because if you call Pac-Nor and order a stainless barrel, it’s gonna’ be much different. It’s gonna’ be different in every way from the barrel I sell. So when you say "what kind of materal do they use?", last time I checked, Pac-Nor uses 416 project 70 made by Carpenter, and I use a different material which is technically considered 416R, and it’s a lot harder than any stainless we’ve ever tested from other manufacturers. Our stainless comes in around 32 on the Rockwell C scale, and that’s harder even than the call-out for the M16 barrel.


...

But, what separates my product from the rest of the products out there, is…the obvious thing’s the barrel, and, from start to finish, the barrel goes through more inspection and testing than any other barrel out there that I’m aware of. From the point we pull the steel of the trailer in 12-foot bars, we instantly hardness test and serialize each bar. Then, every bar throughout the entire production process is numbered accordingly to its parent bar. And then, like I said, we designed all the tooling so the diameters on the drills, the bore reamers, the hand-lapping process, the button that does the button-rifling is our design, and it’s an improvement over conventional polygonal [rifling] in that you get an extended barrel life over conventional polygonal [rifling]. In fact, I’ve never heard of one of our new barrels shooting out. In a year and two months, there’s never been a report of one of my new buttons…the new types of rifling types [barrels] shooting out. "


And then, when we go to chambering, it’s a chambering process that I developed as an employee of Pac-Nor, and I looked at how they were chambering barrels, and I saw the logic in it, and I found ways to improve it. The reamers are all custom-made for me as far as the grind, the angles, the number of flutes. The way we chamber, you never get any scoring on the lands forward of the throat like most other people have to deal with, because our chips are forced out the back. The end result is a beautiful, highly polished chamber. Every barrel is individually inspected to ensure against or prevent reamer wear and have an undersized chamber. They all get gauged on every point, and the design of the chamber is a design I developed after many different evolutions. This was designed to work…to do full-auto mag dumps with [Black Hills] MK 262 Mod 1 [77gr Open-Tip Match (OTM) 5.56x45mm ammo], and now you can sit there and pour as much ammo as you can through the gun on full-auto, and the thing that’s gonna’ fail is the gas tube. We haven’t had any stuck chambers since I came up with the recent chamber, which is called the Noveske…the acronym, which we write on the barrel is "NMm0", and that stands for Noveske Match Mod 0. It’s a chamber that gives you 100% reliability with as much retained accuracy as possible. You can have a more accurate chamber design, but you sacrifice battle-grade reliability. You can get stuck cases and other things with different chambers.

So, from the chamber, our barrel is hardness-tested again, just to make sure we didn’t lose any hardness in the heat-treating process, and every barrel is serial-numbered at that point. So, now, all the information about the barrel, the heat-treat lot, the packing slip number, the bar number, all that information is now attached to the barrel with a 6-digit serial number, and it goes through the rest of the process with all the information attached to it by that number. And, we keep a log book with every end-user and every bit of information, just in case there was a problem with one customer’s barrel, we can track down all the related barrels and pull ‘em in in an efficient manner. And we’ve never had to do that, but I can if I need to. "

[GLSHOOTER]

I would say that short of Carl and his on-site staff most of us will ever learn the intricacies of how a BHW barrel is made. The FAQS: www.blackholeweaponry.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=faq&action=display&thread=57 speak to the type of steel.

The process that Noveske uses appears to be what I have heard over the past two years. There are some pics up here of the staff doing the various things like drilling, rifling and stress relieving. Pretty straight forward. The voodoo of barrel making probably lies in the steel and the consistent use of quality tooling. I now that BHW does a lot of their own tool design and production work just like any top shop.

I've talked to some of the older BHW barrel users and they tell me that with the current steel being used they have seen barrel accuracy increase in consistency and that now the barrels are shooting universally well except for the odd duck that every maker turns out on occasion.

Life of the barrel? Who knows. Define life. Are you talking BR quality groups in the 0's 1's and 2's or a deer vital zone hit? Chambering choices impact barrel life as we all know. A 243 Winchester will eat the throat out any barrel faster than a 6X45 will. The 220 swift eats them up faster than a 223. Same bullet just more hot gases from the propellant.

Even meloniting doesn't guarantee immortality for a barrel. I watched a pair of 243 Winchester bolt guns with top named tubes that were melonited and one lasted 1800 rounds and the other 2600. Both barrels ordered at the same time and processed at the same time. Same loads used. Who is to say?

I know that given a hummer barrel that I will try and not use it for mag dumps, but then I don't do that anyway. If guy has a single gun he shoots in matches two to three times a month plus practice I figure two years ought to be realistic at which point a guy might not like his 500 and 1000 yard groups but if he is shooting on Milpark USPSA targets I would say he has many more rounds before it needs replaced.

I view the entire industry that makes barrels the same way I view a good stock car race. If a Chevy wins the race over all comers and does it over and over again you aren't going to see the specs posted on how they got those extra horsepower out of the same cubic inches. Barrels are the same way.

No one like Shilen, Krieger, Obermyer, Noveske or BHW is going to give you a specific answer on the total package. Sure they will tell you they are stress relieving, and ALL of them do, but at what temp, how long etc,. It just ain't happening McGee. They are not going to share their specifics of tools and processes much less the whole enchilada. BHW makes 'em, I shoot 'em and as far as that goes that's all I need to know.

Greg

[Deleted]

Thanks for the explanation. I understand the concept behind the barrel burners, I had a few myself.

I am having a hard time believing the Noveske are a lot better, they are not more accurate than the black hole, I know that.

But regarding the materials and process, lets take the .223rem as an example that is probably the most popular....

One thing that Noveske said is that Pac-nor uses 416 project 70 made by carpenter. I am not sure of the exact composition of pac-nor but what I know is they are very accurate and there is no reason to believe the steel is inferior quality. In the link you provided from the FAQs (many thanks for that) you mention the BHW barrels are made of 416R so from that prespective if the same as Noveske claims, is that true?

Also Is pac-nor doing your rifling or if you is there anything significantly different than the pac-nor polygonal rifling or chamber that can make it last longer? I am asking because I heard many times the BHW uses pac-nor stock and I am not sure that is true. In the end I don't think that matters that much as soon as the cambering process and QC is well done, and I think it is.
Noveke said " the button that does the button-rifling is our design, and it’s an improvement over conventional polygonal [rifling] in that you get an extended barrel life over conventional polygonal"

The other thing that stroke me as a really bold statement is the words from Noveske that say: "In fact, I’ve never heard of one of our new barrels shooting out".

What do you think about any barrels "never shooting out"?

Unless people are not shooting long enough with the barrels I am not sure that is possible in the real world.

I don't know, a lot of folks might be thinking about the differences between Noveske and the BHW since they both are 3 polygonal and both shoot so well so is there any other substantial difference with those and/or pac-nor?

Thanks.

[GLSHOOTER]

All BHW barrels are made in-house from solid stock. They aren't being sent out to anyone to "finish, rifle or plate.

A barrel not "shooting out" ? Noveske is drinking bath water if he says they don't shoot out. If that were true every rifle in the US Military would carry one of those puppies and I'd be working for them and taking my pay in barrels. Pure and simple BS.

Substantial difference? I would say that two barrels produced back to back will differ in one aspect or another. Even if you took one each and started shooting them that would be far from a scientific representational sample. I can say that in reality less than 5% of the shooters in the world, civilians, will ever wear a barrel out for "normal" usage. Benchrest shooters are a different breed but the average AR shooter won't come close. I've seen 30 barrels shot in excess of 10,000 rounds each, Colt AR's, and they were still capable of center mass at 100 yards with me at the helm.

Given that many shooters rotate between 3 and 4 guns, I do, the chances of wear beyond use approximates zero.

Greg

[Master Yoda]

No one does my work for me period.
My barrels speak for themselves, no words can express what the barrels prove daily.

[ramjet357]

Interesting discussion regarding barrel fabrication from both Master and GL. I know that having done some online research myself, I'm looking forward to a BHW barrel on my next build.

[Deleted]

The secret to how Black Hole barrels are made is much like the recipe to Coke or Kentucky fried chicken. Don't question it, just enjoy it.

And just for the record they are made one at a time in Moses Lake. By Black Hole for Black Hole.

[Deleted]

The part that was more suspicious to me was that the barrels never shoot out. We might not have access to metallurgic testing equipment but we are not stupid. I know a lothar walther or creek will do up to 10,000 accuracy life in 308w. but so many others specially with slower rounds and powder in 308w. In 223 if one is shooting national match the barrel should do 2 or 3 long seasons w/o any issues shooting leagues almost every weekend. ( I have done that) In 3 gun I do not know but also they do not have to be super accurate as tactical matches.
But eventually they all shoot out sooner or later. The marine armorers replace their barrels 3 to 5 times in a tour and we know many times even when it is not necessary" as they shoot with the king's powder" but anyway our boys only deserve the best.

So I do believe the Noveske is doing his pitch like everybody else but I would not be so quick to critize Pac-nor materials or at least reserve some thoughts that to be honest do not fit well. They also do a good job I am sure but those comments about other products I find them always so unnecessary.

So to summarize the BW are super accurate I already know that so I do not need to ask anyone. (still I need to send the 6x45 to see what's up with that one but that is a different story)

The material is 416R right?
The reamers I am sure you have your own and replace them often like most reputable companies do.
Rifling, I do not see anything very different with Noveske but I might be wrong?

I thank you so much for answering these questions. Some folks do not want to talk about it and that is ok (this is a free country at least for a few more days) but I think knowing how things are done and understanding of the process and quality of materials helps the enthusiasts explain your products.
Specially in the web today with so many opinions and cut and paste that nobody knows what is real and what is not anymore so the more information one gets from the people closer to the product, machines and the processes, the better.

Thanks again.
E.

[SwampFox JR]

Dec 18, 2012 21:16:52 GMT -8 @sergiomartinez said:

The part that was more suspicious to me was that the barrels never shoot out. We might not have access to metallurgic testing equipment but we are not stupid. I know a lothar walther or creek will do up to 10,000 accuracy life in 308w. but so many others specially with slower rounds and powder in 308w. In 223 if one is shooting national match the barrel should do 2 or 3 long seasons w/o any issues shooting leagues almost every weekend. ( I have done that) In 3 gun I do not know but also they do not have to be super accurate as tactical matches.
But eventually they all shoot out sooner or later. The marine armorers replace their barrels 3 to 5 times in a tour and we know many times even when it is not necessary" as they shoot with the king's powder" but anyway our boys only deserve the best.

So I do believe the Noveske is doing his pitch like everybody else but I would not be so quick to critize Pac-nor materials or at least reserve some thoughts that to be honest do not fit well. They also do a good job I am sure but those comments about other products I find them always so unnecessary.

So to summarize the BW are super accurate I already know that so I do not need to ask anyone. (still I need to send the 6x45 to see what's up with that one but that is a different story)

The material is 416R right?
The reamers I am sure you have your own and replace them often like most reputable companies do.
Rifling, I do not see anything very different with Noveske but I might be wrong?

I thank you so much for answering these questions. Some folks do not want to talk about it and that is ok (this is a free country at least for a few more days) but I think knowing how things are done and understanding of the process and quality of materials helps the enthusiasts explain your products.
Specially in the web today with so many opinions and cut and paste that nobody knows what is real and what is not anymore so the more information one gets from the people closer to the product, machines and the processes, the better.

Thanks again.
E.

Yeah, that was a can of worms you opened when asked about the specific details LOL.
As far as material info, if you know the metal, you can look on matweb.com for material specs.

[Deleted]

Well, it is not with the intention to open any cans of worms. It is a sincere simple consultation in good faith.
I think every single enthusiast appreciates a little bit of the old fashion honesty and transparency that it is harder and harder to find this days.
Like master Yoda says the product speaks for itself that is bottom line and we know that.
Anyway I don't think that it hurts to know a bit more about the processes and materials.
It is not very different than cars and motorcycle enthusiasts in that sense, they love to talk about what's under the hood.

[dr69er]

Dec 19, 2012 17:27:58 GMT -8 @sergiomartinez said:

Well, it is not with the intention to open any cans of worms. It is a sincere simple consultation in good faith.
I think every single enthusiast appreciates a little bit of the old fashion honesty and transparency that it is harder and harder to find this days.
Like master Yoda says the product speaks for itself that is bottom line and we know that.
Anyway I don't think that it hurts to know a bit more about the processes and materials.
It is not very different than cars and motorcycle enthusiasts in that sense, they love to talk about what's under the hood.

I would agree gun guys are in many ways like car guys and
have a certain passion as it relates to their hobby, sport, or
profession.

I once visited a well known barrel manufacturer many years
ago and was fasinated by the amount work and dedication
that went into producing that barrel...most of whom worked
at the shop were older gentlemen with many years of
experience and even older Pratt & Whitney machinery
used to produce the barrels at specific stages...

So it is natural to be curious about the process for barrel pro-
duction and what is needed to produce a quality barrel.

Just my two penny's.

[GLSHOOTER]

Dec 19, 2012 21:02:37 GMT -8 dr69er said:

Dec 19, 2012 17:27:58 GMT -8 @sergiomartinez said:

Well, it is not with the intention to open any cans of worms. It is a sincere simple consultation in good faith.
I think every single enthusiast appreciates a little bit of the old fashion honesty and transparency that it is harder and harder to find this days.
Like master Yoda says the product speaks for itself that is bottom line and we know that.
Anyway I don't think that it hurts to know a bit more about the processes and materials.
It is not very different than cars and motorcycle enthusiasts in that sense, they love to talk about what's under the hood.

I would agree gun guys are in many ways like car guys and
have a certain passion as it relates to their hobby, sport, or
profession.

I once visited a well known barrel manufacturer many years
ago and was fasinated by the amount work and dedication
that went into producing that barrel...most of whom worked
at the shop were older gentlemen with many years of
experience and even older Pratt & Whitney machinery
used to produce the barrels at specific stages..

So it is natural to be curious about the process for barrel pro-
duction and what is needed to produce a quality barrel.

Just my two penny's.

I once visited a well known barrel manufacturer many years
ago and was fasinated by the amount work and dedication
that went into producing that barrel...most of whom worked
at the shop were older gentlemen with many years of
experience and even older Pratt & Whitney machinery
used to produce the barrels at specific stages...

You pretty well sumed it up there.

Greg