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Post by lkrbuilder13 on Jul 27, 2013 19:31:55 GMT -8
We have a SLEW class at the range, (Surviving Lethal Encounters Workshop) where they go over a BUNCH of information form actual cases where shootings happened. One thing to remember that I learned, High velocity up close is not a good thing in hunting or protection. They showed actual pictures of a person that took 6 shots from a 357 magnum to the face, left the place he attacked the person and drove himself to the hospital. The velocity up close caused the projectiles to explode on impact rather than penetrate. Even the jaw shot did not even break the jaw bone. They showed internal damage analysis on cadavers and substitutes and found the damage caused by 2 shots of 45acp 230gr fmj load. To equal the same internal damage took 4-6 rounds of 185gr 40 S&W FMJ and 7-9 rounds of 9mm 124gr fmj. Then they pointed out that in law enforcement is has been proven over and over that 75-80% of the rounds fired at a target in a high stress event miss there target. I would rather hit them 2 times with a large bullet than try to hit them several times with a smaller projectile. We are going to be doing some power/energy testing using a weighted backstop that we can put different media into to see how "hard" the bullet hits the media. This will enable us to measure the actual energy input into a target to compare different bullets. Real world shooting feedback always beats Keyboard Kowboys. I carried 357 JHP's in the Border Patrol and 9 MM HP's in the FBOP. In the world I carry 230 ball. I worry a bunch about penetrating cover more than missing. The old Power Pendulum was interesting but far from the real world. Greg Why do you carry ball ammo? Don't you want to do the maximum amount of damage with the least amount of shots. I have been carrying a 9mm of 40s&w with the DPX ammo with the barns bullets(100% weight retention with no fragmentation of the bullets) that is my $0.02 Brian
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Post by GLSHOOTER on Jul 28, 2013 9:03:12 GMT -8
You ever shoot through glass and car doors?
Greg
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Post by Babaganoush on Jul 28, 2013 12:00:50 GMT -8
You ever shoot through glass and car doors? Greg That's what the new Hdy Critical Duty* ammo is for. Available to all LE, and law abiding citizens, everywhere. * Optimized for full size, full length slide hand guns.
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Post by lkrbuilder13 on Jul 28, 2013 12:14:09 GMT -8
You ever shoot through glass and car doors? Greg No but if I need to use it I should be in immediate danger (the whole murder trial thing doesn't seem as it would be very fun) and unless someone is running me down with a car then I shouldn't have a need to shoot through a car door. I am not a LEO thus I am not exempt from anything but we do have the stand your ground law here now for what that means. I have shot 12ga lightfield 2 3/4" slugs at an old trucks doors and it didn't pass through both. It just dented the other side. The 35 rem passed through both doors though. I have heard that 10mm is the bust of both worlds but I don't have one in an autoloader.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2013 12:35:21 GMT -8
You ever shoot through glass and car doors? Greg That's what the new Hdy Critical Duty* ammo is for. Available to all LE, and law abiding citizens, everywhere. * Optimized for full size, full length slide hand guns. The last thing I would want to do is trust some ammunition salesman when my life is on the line. If the ball ammo doesn't put down the threat on the first shot, shoot again.
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Post by GLSHOOTER on Jul 28, 2013 12:48:07 GMT -8
You ever shoot through glass and car doors? Greg No but if I need to use it I should be in immediate danger (the whole murder trial thing doesn't seem as it would be very fun) and unless someone is running me down with a car then I shouldn't have a need to shoot through a car door. I am not a LEO thus I am not exempt from anything but we do have the stand your ground law here now for what that means. I have shot 12ga lightfield 2 3/4" slugs at an old trucks doors and it didn't pass through both. It just dented the other side. The 35 rem passed through both doors though. I have heard that 10mm is the bust of both worlds but I don't have one in an autoloader. Lets just say where I live and the people out there car doors are a distinct possibility. Also lets just say you knew a retried LEO that taught firearms instruction to the unwashed and long range shooting to the Boys IN Black and that same fellow just happen to have a bunch of national handgun titles under his belt and specialized in long range hand gunning for many years. I would say I'd stick close to that old guy and not worry too much just like they did for years when high threat moves occurred. As to stand your ground the local coyotes don't worry about ground they just have a cargo to move. There have been more than one shootout that involved innocent drivers on our freeways here in Phoenix. Immediate danger? I suppose you might say that is immediate if you are the poor guy in the truck right amongst 'em. 10MM? A step up from the 40 and a good step it is. An auto in that one would certainly be a good choice for whatever. Of course a wheel gun is not such a bad choice in many cases especially if it starts with a 4. The whole premise is you hit what you have to shoot and then hit it again, you make sure that that you have to shoot needs shooting and what is behind it must come into play AND you are prepared to apply just enough force to get it done in a legal setting in a timely and expeditious manner. No matter what bullet you choose, on hindsight, you will always think that you should have used a different one. Greg PS: As for Hornady CD ammo, I SAW a box of that once a few months ago. I will go load up my Black Talons if I want to stray from the Old School.
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Post by lkrbuilder13 on Jul 28, 2013 13:14:19 GMT -8
We have some CD in 9 40 & 45 on the shelf at the shop. We got 3 cases of each last week and to my surprise it hasn't been flying off the shelf. It is all under $25 a box Brian PS With boot melting heat,people smuggling coyotes, and fire fights on the freeway I might think about moving if I were you. Hopefully at least you took some good lessons from your "friend" I carry when I coon hunt because coyotes make my skin crawl when they yip it up in the same woods your dog is treeing in. Oh wait, I guess that is a different type of coyote isn't it. We don't have your type around here. We just have crack heads cooking meth but lately a utility trailer in the Walmart parking lot has been a popular place to get busted doing that. People are stupid.
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Post by GLSHOOTER on Jul 28, 2013 15:30:41 GMT -8
We have some CD in 9 40 & 45 on the shelf at the shop. We got 3 cases of each last week and to my surprise it hasn't been flying off the shelf. It is all under $25 a box Brian PS With boot melting heat,people smuggling coyotes, and fire fights on the freeway I might think about moving if I were you. Hopefully at least you took some good lessons from your "friend" I carry when I coon hunt because coyotes make my skin crawl when they yip it up in the same woods your dog is treeing in. Oh wait, I guess that is a different type of coyote isn't it. We don't have your type around here. We just have crack heads cooking meth but lately a utility trailer in the Walmart parking lot has been a popular place to get busted doing that. People are stupid. It only melts boots 4 months of the year. The other 8 are fantastic. My coldest shooting day by choice is about 50. The hottest has been about 115. The dove season opens on an average 104. They are pre-cooked when they hit the ground. Time in the US Border Patrol taught my friend well. LOL Grew up in Minnesota so I understand extremes. Last time I went fox hunting it was -15 but the air was so still it was warm just setting on a log waiting and watching. Amazing how much light the full moon does on a snow filed woods. Go ice fishing and throw a walleye out the door from the house and he is solid when he hits the ice. Greg PS: Lots of meth here being cooked in motel rooms and they caught a motor home going down the road the other day that was tad speedy. LOL Shades of Up In Smoke.!!
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Post by Babaganoush on Jul 28, 2013 19:02:27 GMT -8
That's what the new Hdy Critical Duty* ammo is for. Available to all LE, and law abiding citizens, everywhere. * Optimized for full size, full length slide hand guns. The last thing I would want to do is trust some ammunition salesman when my life is on the line. If the ball ammo doesn't put down the threat on the first shot, shoot again. I don't know, Rich. What's not to like? If you'd shoot them, you would know that they expand like hollow points (at least 150%), penetrate either thick clothing or solid surfaces without plugging, and retain 99% of their mass. A salesman doesn't need to tell me what they do - I've seen it. If I were in LE, I'd give these some serious thought, considering that these were developed for the FBI. But, as the old saw goes, "Different strokes..."
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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2013 19:25:29 GMT -8
The last thing I would want to do is trust some ammunition salesman when my life is on the line. If the ball ammo doesn't put down the threat on the first shot, shoot again. I don't know, Rich. What's not to like? If you'd shoot them, you would know that they expand like hollow points (at least 150%), penetrate either thick clothing or solid surfaces without plugging, and retain 99% of their mass. A salesman doesn't need to tell me what they do - I've seen it. If I were in LE, I'd give these some serious thought, considering that these were developed for the FBI. But, as the old saw goes, "Different strokes..." I was not worried about clothing. That is what they claim, nothing mentioned about anything hard as in glass or heavy metal. If I am not mistaken the FBI and DOHS still use Speer Gold Dot ammo. That is what they were shooting when they were training in May 2013.
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Post by Babaganoush on Jul 28, 2013 19:52:20 GMT -8
I don't know, Rich. What's not to like? If you'd shoot them, you would know that they expand like hollow points (at least 150%), penetrate either thick clothing or solid surfaces without plugging, and retain 99% of their mass. A salesman doesn't need to tell me what they do - I've seen it. If I were in LE, I'd give these some serious thought, considering that these were developed for the FBI. But, as the old saw goes, "Different strokes..." I was not worried about clothing. That is what they claim, nothing mentioned about anything hard as in glass or heavy metal. If I am not mistaken the FBI and DOHS still use Speer Gold Dot ammo. That is what they were shooting when they were training in May 2013. I don't know where the FBI stands on an evaluation of the rounds, but the ammunition was developed specifically with FBI ammo protocol in mind. Guns and Ammo EvalUnderstanding that this is a "friendly" evaluation, the results are still impressive.
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Post by jedakiego on Aug 6, 2013 13:19:42 GMT -8
FBI also uses 10mm that shoots at a whopping 980fps. I would not take what a LE or Government does as a basis as protection. Remember 2 things; #1 NATO got the govt. to go to the 9mm and it has been proven lacking time and time again not to mention the fact that NATO has rules about NOT killing enemies, only taking them out of the fight per the Haig accord. #2 If someone developed a 8mm round that they could use and save .000005 cents around but it may not be a lethal as the current 9mm some penny pinchers in the Govt. would be pushing for its use. After All, they are testing the 17 caliber round again for possible use even though it has been tested several times already and failed miserably every time it was attempted. The other item is magazine articles. I do not trust them! I had a friend that has an engine shop and he tested several sets of cylinder heads for a magazine article. He wrote the article and when it came out in the magazine the top 3 sets were not included. He contacted them and there reply was "We did not change your data, we just made XXX heads the best in the test". He asked why the other sets were removed and they said it was due to the amount of money that XXX company spends in advertising with them they could not afford to have there product shown lacking. SO in short when reading an "unbiased" test in a magazine check and see how many ads for that product are in the mag and in the other mags that the company prints.
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Post by lkrbuilder13 on Aug 6, 2013 19:39:56 GMT -8
FBI also uses 10mm that shoots at a whopping 980fps. I would not take what a LE or Government does as a basis as protection. Remember 2 things; #1 NATO got the govt. to go to the 9mm and it has been proven lacking time and time again not to mention the fact that NATO has rules about NOT killing enemies, only taking them out of the fight per the Haig accord. #2 If someone developed a 8mm round that they could use and save .000005 cents around but it may not be a lethal as the current 9mm some penny pinchers in the Govt. would be pushing for its use. After All, they are testing the 17 caliber round again for possible use even though it has been tested several times already and failed miserably every time it was attempted. The other item is magazine articles. I do not trust them! I had a friend that has an engine shop and he tested several sets of cylinder heads for a magazine article. He wrote the article and when it came out in the magazine the top 3 sets were not included. He contacted them and there reply was "We did not change your data, we just made XXX heads the best in the test". He asked why the other sets were removed and they said it was due to the amount of money that XXX company spends in advertising with them they could not afford to have there product shown lacking. SO in short when reading an "unbiased" test in a magazine check and see how many ads for that product are in the mag and in the other mags that the company prints. You might want to watch what suggestions that you make about the government saving money, they might take you up on it.
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Post by GLSHOOTER on Aug 7, 2013 9:08:49 GMT -8
The FBI also shoots the real deal 10MM. Don't be distracted by a single data point.
Just like we trained with 38 Special ammo in this Border Patrol. Wadcutters to start. Then the "Treasury"round that was the hottest +P+ 38 I have ever shot. Next it was the full house 357's.
The progression in ammo selection by the powers that be are based on such nebulous theory and experience that it is incomprehensible to us mere mortals.
Case in point the Air Marshals carry 357 SIGS. That round was chosen by DC bureaucracy. The AM program showed up at GLYNCO and when asked they flat said they had taken no bids or done any testing. At that time in history there was no frangible ammo for them. They didn't even realize such stuff existed.
Greg
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Post by lkrbuilder13 on Aug 7, 2013 15:24:59 GMT -8
The orogression in ammo selection by the powers that be are based on such nebulous theory and experience that it is incomprehensible to us mear mortals.
Case Iin point the Air Marshals carry 357 SIGS. That round was chosen by DC bureaucracy. The AM program showed up at GLYNCO and when asked they flat said they had taken no bids or done any testing. At that time in history there was no frangible ammo for them. They didn't even realize such stuff existed.
Greg[/quote] I wonder if they saved any money with that decision. Yea right!
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