LEO's and The Boss

[GLSHOOTER]

Since I'm a retired LEO I 've done some retrospective assessment of my jobs over the years. I found that by and large in the Fed. BOP that firearms training and skills were never emphasized for the average employee in the prison system.

Our training was an annual refresher course that was watered down so that 99% of those who never touched a firearm through out the year would qualify. Not that we used them much but we still had that possibility.

Those in the Basic Prisoner Transportation group that moved inmates to and from hospitals or on trips were more highly trained but still not really stressed in their annual qualifications.

Our SORT Team (SWAT) pushed the use of all the gear a great deal since they had a high potential in going in to harms way. Tactics was a big part of the operation. I trained the M/O's for my prison and participated in training SORT shooters from all over the US in long range precision rifle shooting.

The question is, to you LEO's now and past, did your outfit WANT you skilled or was a firearm looked upon as a necessary evil?

Just cogitating here on my 61'st birthday looking back.

Greg

[davecharles]

I was an Illinois Conservation Police officer. At one time part of my patrol area was near Marion Federal Prison. Our contact with known felons was much less than that of prison officers but almost everyone we were in contact with had a gun or a knife and some have a lot to lose in an arrest situation. We have full police power and back up State police and other agencies. Our profession is considered very dangerous too. Our agency was good at offering/mandating firearms training and defense tactics (partly because our chief was interested). When that chief retired (about 3 years before I did) things dried up. With the current economy things are very sparse in any kind of training and I believe the current chief is not that interested in firearms (I've been retired a few years and could be wrong about that)
Most agencies are having to do a balancing act with the budget to keep and train officers and hire hew officers to cover retirements. Its tough to do the job without money.
Dave

[thesilent1]

I am a LEO with just over 30 years of experience, currently working in a field/patrol assignment as a md-level supervisor. My agency is the largest of its kind in the US, with about 10,000 sworn members. I have been consistantly involved in weapons/tactics/force training since joining the department, attending both department and outside training at my own cost. I train with and teach pistol, shotgun and rifle (carbine and long range), and fire about 20K rounds per year. And yes, it is expensive for all that ammo!

Weapons training for us has always been looked at as a necessary evil, both in the level of training and the resources dedicated to it by the agency, and by the individual officers themselves. Our curent yearly qualification requirements consists of shooting once every 4 months, with the total round count for the year of about 60 rounds. The minimum passing score is only 70%, and all of the range officers who oversee the training report that between 15-20% of the people each month fail to qualify with a passing score and need to re-shoot.

The main cause of this is due to money: it costs big bucks to pay for the range staff, facilities, ammo and getting 10K people off their regular assignments and into training. And with a "relative" few shootings per year, there are many executives who don't see the need because of the total cost.

But a significant part of the blame rests with the individual officers, the vast majority who do nothing to improve their shooting/tactical skills. The excuses are limitless: it takes too much time, costs too much, its not my "thing," I don't want to look bad, I don't see the need-I copuld go on and on. At all of my assignments, I have offered to take officers to the local IDPA match, coach them through the courses and even pay for breakfast. Less than 12 people have taken me up on the offer, and only 1 person has continued to go consistently (she happens to be my girlfried). I admit that its not easy to spend several hundred/thousand $'s to go to a good shooting school, buy the ammo, pay for the room and use up your limited vacation time. One guy said that his wife would not let him do any of that kind of training because, "...she does not like guns."

Some of us who take the job seriously understand the importance of weapons/force training, and dedicate the time and effort to it. Others do it because they also enjoy it. And I'm sure that there are some agencies that do put a high importance on weapons training, and dedicate the time and $$ for it (not to their special units, but all officers). But the vast majority of officers will only get the most basic/minimal training possible, and to get anything else, they will have to make the effort and pay the costs (time and $$) themselves.

[floridaman73]

Hello, I have to say that my department has really just started in getting all the officers trained in high liability tactics. Shooting pistol and rifle tactical courses,officer survival schools and active shooter training. Being a small department we don't have a swat team so they have made the department in whole a Tac-team. I've always made the analogy "Whats a carpenter without a hammer"? Any way I'm new here and wanted to say hello.

[244]

My department is small (42 sworn) but we are a suburb of a relatively large city (500K).

Our former chief would have been happy for us to qualify (50 round course) once a year, but he would not get away with it from deputy chief on down. He did cancel one of our four yearly range sessions for budgetary reasons a time or two.

I did not argue much because I was able to get one 8 hour, one 4 hour, and one 2 hour training sessions per year vs. four 2 hour sessions per year. The longer sessions allow me to introduce more "training" vs. just qualifications.

I'd guess our average officer/detective shoots about 300 to 400 rounds per year, possibly more depending on the training I conduct. Our SWAT officers shoot a minimum of about 300 additional rounds per year, but can easily shoot 1000 more a year, depending on training.

[rick919]

The department I work at is in a suburb of Tulsa Ok. and we have a few over 40 full time and about 20 reserve officers. We shoot hand gun quals twice a year and shotguns and rifles each once a year. Our SWAT guys shoot once a month at least.

Our department has been serious about shooting skills for most of my 20 years here. And BS aside I'd bet our worst shooters would be rock stars at a lot of departments due to the quality and quantity of our firearms training, I'm not one of the firearms training staff for the record.

It really boils down to how much effort the training staff put into planning the training and how hard they fight with admin for bullets, time and targets. Of course the heckling from your peers if you shank your shots probably helps some to. We shoot the state mandated qualification courses then the real training starts.

We do everything from distance with handguns (always beyond 50 yds) to combat courses that make you shoot while moving, shoot standing from cover, laying on the ground all in one run. There's no allowance for us old guys, either you do it fast and right or your guys hammer on you and then you go through it again.

Stay safe,
Sgt. R. Parsley

[irishman]

I retired 2 years ago (capt) after 30 years, during my career we had 2 officers shot and killed OTJ, I was a first responder at VA tech, and many other incidents, I remember when firearms instructors actually coached the officers and maintained a high standard, it seems that now it is just pass the minimum, we had a new officer that could not pass the academy due to not being able to qualify, they gave her a pass and after several months and numerous range sessions she got the minimum score, fact is we have gotten so politically correct that we have dropped the standards in many areas of the job and can't seem to understand why we have so many issues with bad shootings, corruption etc, I think most chiefs and sheriffs are politicians and not leo's, I have a great respect for the profession, but I see the professionalism deteriorating, this is my prospective from my experience and observance of surrounding agencies, and the news.

[Win75]

I retired from the Missouri Department of Corrections back in 2002 after 31 years.
Firearms there were also just a necessary evil in most cases. Rudimentery training and very limited range time. Hit a target at 7 yards with a handgun 4 out of 5 times and you were good to go. Long guns were not any better. They had a competition team but you had to be one of the good old boys to be on it.
During one "training" session, an assistant Superintendant told everyone to shoot to stop an escapee. I asked if that meant they wanted us to shoot a convict attempting to escape over the fence. He said, "Shoot to stop him". I informed him that shooting to stop someone going over the wire meant shooting the escapee, otherwise he would not stop. I was told that if I shot the convict, our legal council would not represent me.
The sheriffs department I worked for part time during those years had a different outlook on these issues. Intensive firearms training both in the classroom and range time.

[mr45acp2u]

Here goes my .02 on the topic. I work for a mid sized agency, I am a road supervisor, and firearms instructor, just over 14 years in. Some times it isnt the mentality of the top that determines the training that is obtained, but the mindset of the people training.

We just finished a 10 hours DT training and a 4 hour firearms block. The DT was pretty good, if you were involved and focused, we beat each other up pretty good. But if you didnt want to be there, then you got nothing out of it.

Now for firearms. We just started replacing tuperware with all steel pistols, of a variant that is 101 years old We have some guys who can drive a pistol and own it, and others, well, they bring it to work with them.

The guys and gals who can drive the pistol, they improve their skills when we have training blocks, others maintain their skill, and some they, slow the whole class down and sometimes make it run backwards.

The instructors know who each group of students is and dread teaching some of the classes. Some times a person will see the light, and make the change from one group to another, but then sometimes they will slip back. but many of them have no intention of moving from the group they are in.

Here is where I feel management failure plays. They have they ability to mandate remedial training, outside of just gettng a person "qualified" but most times will not. We have not had a mandatory remedial training program in place and it seems they are reluctant to put it in. It will tie up the primary trainer, and take people off the road longer.

a few rambling thoughts, and my wife wants on the computer.

[chaos23]

I work for a municipal agency, and our firearms training is woefully inadequate. I understand that budgets are tough and that is part of the problem, but another issue at our department is the continual lowering of standards.

We have some officers who can't qualify on the standard course (twice yearly) and instead of spending the $$/effort to bring them up to snuff we've lowered the standards. As a result, it seems that more and more officers are having trouble qualifying, even with the reduced standards.

Ok, rant off, but I guess to answer your real question, our brass seems to look at firearms as only a licensing/liability requirement and not so much as a valuable, perishable skill.

[submoa33]

I am a full time State Police Firearms Inst. I see that they powers that be want everyone to be a master of the gun. However, don't want to pay the $ that it takes to train people correctly. Ammo is expensive but, so are negligent shootings.

Recently in New York there was an active shooter situation. When the Police arrived they encountered the suspect and fired. More of a spraying bullets in the direction of the suspect. The Police injured more people than the suspect. The Police injured 9 civilians with misplaced shots. That was more people than the suspect shot.

There is no excuse for this. It falls back to inadequacy in training and not teaching Cops the true nature of Gunfighting, which is speed and accuracy.

[texcl]

I'm an advanced FI and armorer for a Federal Agency and can safely say that historically my agency has always held marksmenship in very high reguard. As a matter of fact I remember in the acadamey many moons ago the instructors telling us there are only 2 things you needed to learn in the academy... "how to kick some ass and how to shoot". I will say that with all the politics and budget cuts flying around nowadays like all other agencys it is getting watered down, but alot better than most. It's funny how one of the first bugets any agency cuts is the ammo budget.

[GLSHOOTER]

Dec 1, 2012 13:30:24 GMT -8 texcl said:

I'm an advanced FI and armorer for a Federal Agency and can safely say that historically my agency has always held marksmenship in very high reguard. As a matter of fact I remember in the acadamey many moons ago the instructors telling us there are only 2 things you needed to learn in the academy... "how to kick some ass and how to shoot". I will say that with all the politics and budget cuts flying around nowadays like all other agencys it is getting watered down, but alot better than most. It's funny how one of the first bugets any agency cuts is the ammo budget.

I wish the Fed. BOP where I was had the second in mind. We did the first when we needed too. LOL At least the Border Patrol let us do that.

Greg

[Bowhntr6pt]

I'm an instructor (handgun, AR15, shotgun, Taser, shoothouse) with my agency and current Sniper Team Leader. We are fortunate in that we have our OWN range facility where we can get out to about 225 yards with access to a field next door that gets us out past 600 yards. In addition to that, we built our VERY OWN shoot house that's really top notch.

I'm fortunate as we get plenty of ammo to shoot and there is no reason why officers don't practice other than being LAZY. I've spent upwards of $350 of my OWN money to set up a range day only to have a few show up.

Where I work, you CAN'T blame in on the boss...

[jdgill]

weve cut our fire arms training down from 4 required to 1 pratical and 1 tactical per year due to budget cut. we still do several open ranges a year and the only people that show up are the ones that love to shoot the ones that take several tries to qualify and really need the pratice never show up