|
Post by GLSHOOTER on Nov 16, 2012 17:24:04 GMT -8
Are you using a rest or a bipod? What power on the optics? The node should be just a tad wider than what you are finding. Were the other groups round or did they string vertically?
Greg
|
|
aftcg
Junior Member
Posts: 47
|
Post by aftcg on Nov 16, 2012 18:36:47 GMT -8
I'm using a short Harris bipod. Often I'll tuck one of those carpet samples ranges use under it to dampen the tendency of the bipod to "reflect" upwards, but today I did not. I have one of those leather bags with a notch at the rear. My bench was about as solid as wood gets.
I think I had it dialed to about 10x (Nikon 4-16x42 SF). The other groups were round-ish, the geometric center of the groups all fell at the same place and you can see where I document groups with "3 in .9"" etc. to show that it was a half way decent group with a couple of flyers.
No, they don't appear to be vertical at all. If anything they are more horizontal
|
|
|
Post by GLSHOOTER on Nov 16, 2012 20:26:34 GMT -8
I'm using a short Harris bipod. Often I'll tuck one of those carpet samples ranges use under it to dampen the tendency of the bipod to "reflect" upwards, but today I did not. I have one of those leather bags with a notch at the rear. My bench was about as solid as wood gets. I think I had it dialed to about 10x (Nikon 4-16x42 SF). The other groups were round-ish, the geometric center of the groups all fell at the same place and you can see where I document groups with "3 in .9"" etc. to show that it was a half way decent group with a couple of flyers. No, they don't appear to be vertical at all. If anything they are more horizontal I'm learning that vertical wants more speed and many tines horizontal is cheeking the stock. I never have gotten as good a groups with the VMAX as I have with the BTHP's. Mine is a 1:9 and it seems to really like the big boys. I have also gone to smaller and smaller aiming points and this seems to have tightened thing up a bit. I also run them at MAX power when I can. For load development I have resorted to a 24X Leupold and recently got a 32X from Ritch just so I can see the wings on the fly and not just the fly. Greg
|
|
aftcg
Junior Member
Posts: 47
|
Post by aftcg on Nov 16, 2012 21:58:40 GMT -8
Good input. I've never thought about using different glass for working up a load. I do have an 8-32x50 Konus Pro that would look like a beast perched on top. I'll accept that criticism on cheek contact because it did feel like that was an issue. Ironically, even though the AR seems to be so much more ergonomic I have a hard time getting as settled in as a good old fashion 700 BDL Tell me I'm crazy here if you want, but I was thinking about revisiting that 28.6 load and try 28.4, 28.5, 28.6, 28.7, 28.8 and see if it reflects the narrow range that appears here. Or should I just load the 28.6 and play with seating depth as my variable? Or should I consider abandoning N133 for this use and try a load with Benchmark (still untested for me).
|
|
|
Post by GLSHOOTER on Nov 17, 2012 7:46:54 GMT -8
Good input. I've never thought about using different glass for working up a load. I do have an 8-32x50 Konus Pro that would look like a beast perched on top. I'll accept that criticism on cheek contact because it did feel like that was an issue. Ironically, even though the AR seems to be so much more ergonomic I have a hard time getting as settled in as a good old fashion 700 BDL Tell me I'm crazy here if you want, but I was thinking about revisiting that 28.6 load and try 28.4, 28.5, 28.6, 28.7, 28.8 and see if it reflects the narrow range that appears here. Or should I just load the 28.6 and play with seating depth as my variable? Or should I consider abandoning N133 for this use and try a load with Benchmark (still untested for me). I prefer to go up in 0.3 increments for testing. The AR is not as easy to shoot as a bolt gun. It is far less ergonomic that most thing IMHO. I have never used the N133. Ritch does well with Benchmark. I like IMR 8208, RL15 and H4895. The depth at 28.6 might be worth exploring. A chronograph would be helpful. Greg
|
|
aftcg
Junior Member
Posts: 47
|
Post by aftcg on Nov 17, 2012 14:11:29 GMT -8
I have a chrono, I just didn't see bringing it until I printed something useful.
N133 is supposed to be the shiz for 6ppc, but my 22ppc doesn't care for it (does like Benchmark). I'm sitting on 3 pounds so I was hoping to find something to do with it.
Agree on the ergo at this point. I found I had to abandon using my support hand for positioning and rely on a perfect position of the rear bag and then use my right hand for the tiny changes.
|
|
|
Post by jamesg651 on Nov 17, 2012 17:44:40 GMT -8
Been shooting all spring/summer/fall with my 20 Tactical with a 20x power Nikon, my prarie dog/ coyote gun. Just recently got my 243 lbc and the only scope I had on hand is a 9x Bushnell elite. Trying to do load development with a 9x is a stretch. I have the same setup(Harris bipod,rabbit ear rear bag) but its not the same without a higher power scope.
|
|
aftcg
Junior Member
Posts: 47
|
Post by aftcg on Nov 17, 2012 22:10:16 GMT -8
James I'm curious what loads you've tried and what your results are so far.
|
|
|
Post by jamesg651 on Nov 20, 2012 20:51:03 GMT -8
Tomorrow I'm heading to the range, with some 8208 xbr loads with 87 v-max and 55 grain CT's. I'll let you know how they work.
|
|
aftcg
Junior Member
Posts: 47
|
Post by aftcg on Dec 3, 2012 11:41:40 GMT -8
Any update James?
I loaded up a bunch of 87 Vmax with Benchmark and it seems like I'm finally on to something. At least the nodes are wider(i.e. more tolerant) which gives me some hope I can develop a keeper.
In the mean time I obtained a set of Hornady case length gauges which paid for themselves right out of the box - my head space was pathetic. Makes me feel like I burned up a lot of powder and bullets at the range and didn't learn a thing - other than what I should have done to begin with.
Now I've got all my brass sized accurately, neck turned and tumbled and ready to try the Benchmark again.
I'm waiting for a case to be threaded for my case length gauge but in the mean time I grabbed a case and split the neck so it would hold a bullet with mild tension and checked out my entire stash of bullets.
A previous observation from GLSHOOTER that the 87 Vmax would be at the rifling with a 2.175 OAL was pretty close: 2.202 on my rifle. Another one that was surprising was the 85 sierra Gameking. It's so blunt that it is actually hitting rifling at 2.154
I couldn't find any Berger 87s at my local shop but I did come home with a box of Berger 80 grain to try out.
Back to the bench
|
|
|
Post by GLSHOOTER on Dec 3, 2012 12:35:12 GMT -8
Any update James? I loaded up a bunch of 87 Vmax with Benchmark and it seems like I'm finally on to something. At least the nodes are wider(i.e. more tolerant) which gives me some hope I can develop a keeper. In the mean time I obtained a set of Hornady case length gauges which paid for themselves right out of the box - my head space was pathetic. Makes me feel like I burned up a lot of powder and bullets at the range and didn't learn a thing - other than what I should have done to begin with. Now I've got all my brass sized accurately, neck turned and tumbled and ready to try the Benchmark again. I'm waiting for a case to be threaded for my case length gauge but in the mean time I grabbed a case and split the neck so it would hold a bullet with mild tension and checked out my entire stash of bullets. A previous observation from GLSHOOTER that the 87 Vmax would be at the rifling with a 2.175 OAL was pretty close: 2.202 on my rifle. Another one that was surprising was the 85 sierra Gameking. It's so blunt that it is actually hitting rifling at 2.154 I couldn't find any Berger 87s at my local shop but I did come home with a box of Berger 80 grain to try out. Back to the bench Ah yes, my comment from 6-12-12 paid off agian!! ;D The hot ticket is a Hornady/Stoney Point head space gauge, .350, to set your shoulder movement up. If you don't have that then size a case lightly and as you size it more drop it in the chamber and let the bolt go home with GRAVITY ONLY. It will snick in place when you have enough until you get the gauge. Glad to hear that you are making progress. You could buy the tools to do your own threading. They pay for themselves quickly like in four or five cases. Greg
|
|
aftcg
Junior Member
Posts: 47
|
Post by aftcg on Dec 3, 2012 12:56:11 GMT -8
Yes Greg that's been nagging me for months. I thought I had done an okay job back then of creeping up on just being able to close the bolt and charged ahead (no pun intended).
Given that I haven't found even "blind squirreled" a bug hole yet I knew I had to eliminate it as a variable.
Well now that I've played with the gauge set I'm going to double check everything else I load.
|
|
aftcg
Junior Member
Posts: 47
|
Post by aftcg on Dec 3, 2012 13:00:22 GMT -8
Oh, and I've sent a couple of cases to a guy on this board who kindly offered to thread them for me.
After that I ordered my own 5/16-32 tap which is a seriously odd thread.
|
|
|
Post by GLSHOOTER on Dec 3, 2012 13:17:56 GMT -8
Oh, and I've sent a couple of cases to a guy on this board who kindly offered to thread them for me. After that I ordered my own 5/16-32 tap which is a seriously odd thread. They are not easy to find. LOL Greg PS: I'm looking at the Sinclair tool that doesn't use special cases. Ritch jogged my memory about them. I think he likes spending my money.
|
|
aftcg
Junior Member
Posts: 47
|
Post by aftcg on Dec 9, 2012 18:46:21 GMT -8
Alright here's my update. I'm finally homing in on a consistently accurate load in my rifle so I'm pretty happy to be able to report some success. I've at least captured a couple of loads which can now be tweaked for seating depth, different primers, etc. I have to say the components I used today are ones which are always on my reloading bench and I just wasn't using them because I haven't seen anyone on any forum with this caliber showing results. The winners are Benchmark powder and the Sierra 70 grain Blitzking. I switched to a concerted effort to try Benchmark and burned through a bunch of 87 Vmax bullets, and part of a box of Berger 80 grain Varmint. I've spent a fair chunk of change trying to get the 87 Vmax to bug hole and it hasn't happened. Sometimes you just have to recognize that you can't force a rifle to love a bullet. First, the bad news. The 80 Berger won't feed from a magazine at all. It jams at the feed ramps 2 out of 3 times and either buggars the tip of the bullet or shoves it back in the case. The other thing I've come to learn, is that I can't load my rifle anywhere near as hot as some of the loads I've read. In fact I'm finding pressure signs below published maximums for 6PPC in some cases. The most I can get a decent group with the 87 Vmax is 26.5 grains of Benchmark, and it will consistently shoot at 1" with it. No pressure signs, nice round group and I can load it one day and try it again next week and have it do the same thing. Am I totally stoked? No, but I have something worth putting over the chronograph and shooting further distances with, even if it's not the super hot round of the century. I've come to the conclusion that it's just not physically possible to get really impressive velocity out of a cartridge that is showing pressure at 28 grains, where I might be closer to 42.0 with my .243 bolt gun. The whole reason I selected the .243 lbc in the first place was for accuracy. If I can't have consistent accuracy then it really doesn't matter what kind of velocity or muzzle energy I'm hoping for. On to the 70 Sierra Blitzking 27.5 grains of Benchmark 28.0 grains of Benchmark Groups below and in between were also in the same range, all at least 1.2 or smaller. So I've finally found a powder with a tolerant range where I'm not getting flyers, strings, etc Pressure on the CCI 400 primer is just showing up at 28.0 grains with a sharp line around the primer dimple. The 70 Blitzking was one of the bullets I found would require a jump to the rifling in order to have enough in the case neck. At my OAL of 2.128 the bullet has .108 of jump and .153 in the neck (a bit less than I'd like). I'm going to see what happens when I seat it deeper, again starting low at around 26.5 grains and back up. Oh, and my rifle badly needs a decent trigger. I'm using the Rock River 2 stage, which I have put in every AR I've built because it's an order of magnitude above the stock rusty jaw trap. Of the one's I've installed this one is the least consistent and I know it's costing me group size. I think one of the single stage Geiselle triggers is in order. Cheers
|
|