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Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2012 5:47:27 GMT -8
I have been thinking about this for a while. How many of you shoot long range? For the sake of argument I will call it over 600 yards. It seems there are two basic groups of people. Group #1 This is the group that actively shoots. They know their equipment and understand what goes into a long range shot. They know how to read flags, mirage, account for the temperature and barometric pressure, adjust for humidity, elevation etc. This same group has a good understanding of external ballistics. Bullet stabilization is a must as well as twist rate. I know this sounds like a job application. ;D Group #2 This group is usually made up of new shooters. There are some old guys that are not willing to let go of all the myths they have learned over the years. They are just getting started learning a whole different world of shooting. The problem with this group is they usually believe, or at least take everything they read to hart. Most of the opinions out there on the web are posted by this same group of people. So here in lies the problem. How do we get group #2 into group #1?
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Post by GLSHOOTER on Jul 15, 2012 17:14:29 GMT -8
I guess the #2's join the #1's after a lot of bullets get sent down range and they get to see what real long range shooters can do. It is not an easy skill to pick up and humility gets a workout!! I've done a bit of the LR stuff and am doing more as time progresses. My abilities are not bad and learning about the mirage and weather is a challenge. Whacking an 8" plate at 750 + is not hard to do with a good rig and a god dope table on a CALM day. When Mother Nature wants to play footsie though all bets are off until one has that trigger time and the ability to to a SWAG as things get fluid. The magazines and gun books all hype LR shooting and quite frankly the equipment is step one. It is not cheap. The investment can be modest for a start but as the addiction grows so does the $$ price on the stick and the bigger hole in the wallet. The AR world is full of the guys that read about those Quigley shots and they do exist but when it comes to the first time laying on the belly I recommend and getting a COACH or a mentor to talk things over with. Reading, digesting and rereading some precision shooting books is a major step toward understanding of what goes on in the world of External Ballistics. Internal is easy. Follow the recipe, get a chronograph and see how it matches. From barrel to target is the heart of the challenge. Ballistics tables are a great tool but when the realization hits that all those numbers are close but no cigar then the cogitating starts. The , "What if" and "In your opinion" questions are both internal and external. That is where the coach and mentor come to play. The guys that have seen the elephant and lived through it to share are the guys to find. I truly believe in every county in the US there is some guy/girl that knows how to put the bullet on the target be it paper, steel or flesh and blood. Honesty and self assessment are crucial to success. The ability to go shoot with GOOD shooters or at least know how they do and gauge yourself from the first step and up as you climb the ladder of knowledge and skill is important. Success is never easy in the LR world. Many try, many get "good" and many get "super but along the way they all have to start. There are no "natural" shooters in LR. There are OBSERVANT shooters but no naturals. I'm not great, I'm not poor but I am learning myself. It is important to set a gaol for oneself that is easy, one that is mildly challenging and one that is off the hook. As progression starts the easy are EASY!! the challenging ones become less so and the Off The Hook ones..........well, they get down to eye level and become attainable. My goal this year was to get a classification in F-Class. Unfortunately in Arizona those matches are for the COOL months! LOL So I have to wait until October. I'll shoot three matches at three ranges and get my card. My goal by this time next year is to shoot Master scores, The Off The Hook is High Master. I hope that this board keeps pushing the education and the opportunity to share experiences. No sacred ox's here. Greg
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Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2012 17:54:45 GMT -8
I guess the #2's join the #1's after a lot of bullets get sent down range and they get to see what real long range shooters can do. It is not an easy skill to pick up and humility gets a workout!! I've done a bit of the LR stuff and am doing more as time progresses. My abilities are not bad and learning about the mirage and weather is a challenge. Whacking an 8" plate at 750 + is not hard to do with a good rig and a god dope table on a CALM day. When Mother Nature wants to play footsie though all bets are off until one has that trigger time and the ability to to a SWAG as things get fluid. The magazines and gun books all hype LR shooting and quite frankly the equipment is step one. It is not cheap. The investment can be modest for a start but as the addiction grows so does the $$ price on the stick and the bigger hole in the wallet. The AR world is full of the guys that read about those Quigley shots and they do exist but when it comes to the first time laying on the belly I recommend and getting a COACH or a mentor to talk things over with. Reading, digesting and rereading some precision shooting books is a major step toward understanding of what goes on in the world of External Ballistics. Internal is easy. Follow the recipe, get a chronograph and see how it matches. From barrel to target is the heart of the challenge. Ballistics tables are a great tool but when the realization hits that all those numbers are close but no cigar then the cogitating starts. The , "What if" and "In your opinion" questions are both internal and external. That is where the coach and mentor come to play. The guys that have seen the elephant and lived through it to share are the guys to find. I truly believe in every county in the US there is some guy/girl that knows how to put the bullet on the target be it paper, steel or flesh and blood. Honesty and self assessment are crucial to success. The ability to go shoot with GOOD shooters or at least know how they do and gauge yourself from the first step and up as you climb the ladder of knowledge and skill is important. Success is never easy in the LR world. Many try, many get "good" and many get "super but along the way they all have to start. There are no "natural" shooters in LR. There are OBSERVANT shooters but no naturals. I'm not great, I'm not poor but I am learning myself. It is important to set a gaol for oneself that is easy, one that is mildly challenging and one that is off the hook. As progression starts the easy are EASY!! the challenging ones become less so and the Off The Hook ones..........well, they get down to eye level and become attainable. My goal this year was to get a classification in F-Class. Unfortunately in Arizona those matches are for the COOL months! LOL So I have to wait until October. I'll shoot three matches at three ranges and get my card. My goal by this time next year is to shoot Master scores, The Off The Hook is High Master. I hope that this board keeps pushing the education and the opportunity to share experiences. No sacred ox's here. Greg Well put Greg!!! I knew you would type what I was thinking. ;D
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Post by flutedbull204 on Jul 15, 2012 19:37:23 GMT -8
Though I look forward to the days of long distance shooting to consist of over 600 yrds, my LR shooting consists of a max of 425 at this point off my covered deck with a semi perm, shooting table! I have reloaded and shot many rounds for my 300 wm and my 204 ruger, and have come to know my rifles, but continue to absorb as much data on LR shooting as pos. I enjoy when information is shared about LR shooting! but as a shooter new (10 yrs of shooting) to LR, I really want to learn about the mirage and how to read it! I really hope to step up my distance more when I get my 264 lbc completed. I find myself studying ballistics and reloading powder charts more than I probably should, but enjoy the tediousness of everything LR shooting, 425 yrs long, as LR shooting goes for me! Thank you all for your willing to share your knowledge!
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aspp
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Post by aspp on Jul 16, 2012 14:42:46 GMT -8
There are some good thoughts here, but I think your missing a category, the ones who have learned LR the hard way, and who dont fully understand all of the ballistics and equations, but can (more often than not) make those 600+ yd shots in the field. My entire life has been behind a gun or under a tractor, I grew up very poor and we had to supplement our table with what we could shoot. By 10 I was a better shot than most men I have met at the range, go hungry a few times and you will pick up hunting fast! I know its a minority, this group, but its how my whole family has learned to shoot. Now, I am reading about LR, and going "OHHH so thats what that is called!!". I am also just stepping into the AR world, so there is a lot of humbling going on here too. I was always under the impression that ARs are shortrange tacticool toys, but I am starting to see the potential for them past 300yds.
This group may go between you #1 and #2 or it may just be a side note, but I know that 7/10 times I can plow a yote at 600yds from the seat of my pickup with my .243 and 8/10 times with the 30-06. Longest kill so far is 1127 with the 30-06, took 3 trys to get my Kentucky windage right, the dog had no clue what was going on. Hopefully I will learn Dope cards and figure out how to use turrets enough to do it in 1.
Maybe the groups should be boiled down to: Those willing to learn, those that can learn, and those that need to shut up and learn?
Safe shooting -Jace
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Post by GLSHOOTER on Jul 16, 2012 15:23:43 GMT -8
There are some good thoughts here, but I think your missing a category, the ones who have learned LR the hard way, and who dont fully understand all of the ballistics and equations, but can (more often than not) make those 600+ yd shots in the field. Maybe the groups should be boiled down to: Those willing to learn, those that can learn, and those that need to shut up and learn? Safe shooting -Jace You summed it up well. The hard way. The world is changing a round us and the "hard way" is not as prevalent as when we all were growing up. I think that the current crop of shooters are so influenced by the media that it is assumed that if you buy the biggest, baddest and newest toys you become a "sniper" level shooter by fiat. Learning is hard and those that want to and will invest the time/$$'s usually well one way or the other. Greg
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aspp
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Post by aspp on Jul 19, 2012 18:08:16 GMT -8
Ya, I try to do the whole "dont work harder, work smarter" thing, but its not always easy!
The world is not a nice place, people forget that in a world of instant gratification and internet. I think a year of survival training (without their Ipods or cellphones) for everyone wouldnt hurt anything. Some self motivation, and common sense, would do a lot of good.
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Post by flutedbull204 on Jul 25, 2012 6:56:08 GMT -8
so GL, what advice/tips do you have for long range shooting? Please, everyone else also chime in.
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machv
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Post by machv on Oct 29, 2012 2:49:05 GMT -8
Have found the biggest downside to long range shooting @ big game is that they are very seldom closer to the truck and it usually involves crossing a canyon or two. A goat and deer fit into the backpack if you bone them out but an elk can be a real problem somtimes!! A good rangfinder,wind meter, angle indicator and a ballistic program almost take the fun out of shooting past 600.....Ya right ;D
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2012 18:06:00 GMT -8
In my opinion you take group one and group two and sign up for some professional training. The equipment is not as important as the training. Being open at all times is key no matter what group. Skip all the magpul dynamics circus and other tatcticool marketing oriented alikes and look for alternatives with local instructors. It will be more affordable and one on one will be priceless from an experienced instructor. Also do not understimate what can be learned in some tail gate shooting sessions in exchange for a six pack and some good old way entertainment after the shooting of course. every other week I shoot here with some of the guys from the local swat team and we have a blast. We also shoot skeet some weekends and it is a very nice personal experience above anything else. If I had time I would be competing but at the moment I have kids in school and a busy job so I cannot compete but I will when I can. I find that biggest challenge in competition is within oneself. That is the only guy there is to beat to enjoy the progress.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2012 19:04:17 GMT -8
I spend a bit of my time shooting to 700yds at the range, but dont fit either group. I know all my dialups to 900yds on my 6x45. I know where to hold for my my wind drifts/readings from 0-30mph (always blowing in WY). I dont worry at all about barometrics or any other thing. Most of all I always hit my targets. I dont shoot for dinky holes I shoot to hit coyotes out to 700 yards when I have to. I dont go by myths, just by shooting regularly & not one of my rigs has more than $800 in them. I shoot next to guys who have $1200 scopes, $6k in custom guns/rests/Ipads/ etc. & are always dinking around with thier goods. They have nicer rigs, bigger calibers & I have shot some of thier guns, but my setup works perfectly for my usages. I have fun with LR and thats what counts to me.
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Post by GLSHOOTER on Dec 12, 2012 7:14:08 GMT -8
I spend a bit of my time shooting to 700yds at the range, but dont fit either group. I know all my dialups to 900yds on my 6x45. I know where to hold for my my wind drifts/readings from 0-30mph (always blowing in WY). I dont worry at all about barometrics or any other thing. Most of all I always hit my targets. I dont shoot for dinky holes I shoot to hit coyotes out to 700 yards when I have to. I dont go by myths, just by shooting regularly & not one of my rigs has more than $800 in them. I shoot next to guys who have $1200 scopes, $6k in custom guns/rests/Ipads/ etc. & are always dinking around with thier goods. They have nicer rigs, bigger calibers & I have shot some of thier guns, but my setup works perfectly for my usages. I have fun with LR and thats what counts to me. Your approach and results parallel mine. If the barrel is good and the load works it's all a trigger puling contest and who can read the wind. $$'s don't win matches quality and skill do. Greg
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Post by dinosdeuce on Feb 4, 2015 19:14:10 GMT -8
I would fall under#1. The reason being I shoot from 2000 ft msl to almost 7000ft msl and in temps from 20F to 105F. Dope cards up to 10,000ft is necessary because of DA. Especially once you get past 700 yds. The PRS comps have targets out past 1000 yds now pretty regularly. In the Vegas PRS match a couple of weeks ago we had one stage with targets at 1110, 1200, 1300 and 1400yds. You had 2 shots at each. Definitely not saying I hit them all the time. Mother nature sees to that, but the most important thing is I have fun trying.
I used to think 400 yds was a very long shot, not anymore. Greg summed it up its all about the trigger.
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Post by sandman799 on Dec 17, 2018 16:24:25 GMT -8
I believe you to be 100% wrong on the point that there are no natural shooters when it comes to long range shooting, there’s naturals when it comes to just about anything, I’m a natural at close to mid range shooting 100/500 + meters, but haven’t yet tested my mettle at anything long range but I will be in a few weeks, I’m not saying I’m a natural at long range and I may be in for a hard smack in the back of the head but I’ll give it the good ol infantrymans try and see where the lead lands, and talent is a good start but good equipment is also a good part of the battle, if you have a decent zeroed scope and don’t pull the trigger like your pud it’ll land on target, I always was a crack shot with a rifle, I couldnt hit the broad side of a barn with a pistol until I actually started really shooting them, but with a rifle and iron sights, used to be if I could see it I could hit it, and I’m hoping my proficiency with close and medium range shooting will be a good start for the 800+ meters we’re going to be shooting at the sheriffs range in a few weeks, we’re actually going to be trying to shoot out to 1500 meters, so I’ll see where it goes, but again when it comes to anything including shooting either close medium or long range there are always naturals, , I’ll let you know where the lead lands when we get back BC quote author="@rjohnson" source="/post/6889/thread" timestamp="1342403685"] I guess the #2's join the #1's after a lot of bullets get sent down range and they get to see what real long range shooters can do. It is not an easy skill to pick up and humility gets a workout!! I've done a bit of the LR stuff and am doing more as time progresses. My abilities are not bad and learning about the mirage and weather is a challenge. Whacking an 8" plate at 750 + is not hard to do with a good rig and a god dope table on a CALM day. When Mother Nature wants to play footsie though all bets are off until one has that trigger time and the ability to to a SWAG as things get fluid. The magazines and gun books all hype LR shooting and quite frankly the equipment is step one. It is not cheap. The investment can be modest for a start but as the addiction grows so does the $$ price on the stick and the bigger hole in the wallet. The AR world is full of the guys that read about those Quigley shots and they do exist but when it comes to the first time laying on the belly I recommend and getting a COACH or a mentor to talk things over with. Reading, digesting and rereading some precision shooting books is a major step toward understanding of what goes on in the world of External Ballistics. Internal is easy. Follow the recipe, get a chronograph and see how it matches. From barrel to target is the heart of the challenge. Ballistics tables are a great tool but when the realization hits that all those numbers are close but no cigar then the cogitating starts. The , "What if" and "In your opinion" questions are both internal and external. That is where the coach and mentor come to play. The guys that have seen the elephant and lived through it to share are the guys to find. I truly believe in every county in the US there is some guy/girl that knows how to put the bullet on the target be it paper, steel or flesh and blood. Honesty and self assessment are crucial to success. The ability to go shoot with GOOD shooters or at least know how they do and gauge yourself from the first step and up as you climb the ladder of knowledge and skill is important. Success is never easy in the LR world. Many try, many get "good" and many get "super but along the way they all have to start. There are no "natural" shooters in LR. There are OBSERVANT shooters but no naturals. I'm not great, I'm not poor but I am learning myself. It is important to set a gaol for oneself that is easy, one that is mildly challenging and one that is off the hook. As progression starts the easy are EASY!! the challenging ones become less so and the Off The Hook ones..........well, they get down to eye level and become attainable. My goal this year was to get a classification in F-Class. Unfortunately in Arizona those matches are for the COOL months! LOL So I have to wait until October. I'll shoot three matches at three ranges and get my card. My goal by this time next year is to shoot Master scores, The Off The Hook is High Master. I hope that this board keeps pushing the education and the opportunity to share experiences. No sacred ox's here. Greg Well put Greg!!! I knew you would type what I was thinking. ;D[/quote]
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