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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2013 4:20:55 GMT -8
Using a 308 case would give you the needed shoulder. The problem is head thrust. The bigger the case head the lower the case pressure. The 450 uses a .473 bolt the same as a 308. Pressure has to stay under 35000 PSI to operate safely in an AR15 platform.
The answer to your question about using an AR10 bolt. Yes it can be done, but there are some real problems that come up. The first one is the size. It has to fit inside the barrel extension. And the extension has to likewise fit the upper receiver. All this has to fit in an AR15 upper and work as it should.
Black Hole has a magnum upper in the works that would solve the head thrust problem. It will use a modified 308 bolt and carrier and fit on a AR15 lower. So far the main thing they are running into is machine time to manufacture the parts. It doesn't look good for this years hunting season. But hopefully by next year it will be in full swing
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Post by lkrbuilder13 on Jul 28, 2013 5:37:46 GMT -8
What are the initial calibers that are being looked at to be used in the magnum upper receiver? I know the 358 Hoosier is an oddball designed with the constraints that the state of Indiana have set forth, but it would be nice to build something in 35 cal to hunt with. I know I won't be building for this fall but maybe for next. 80) as far as pressures and sizes of everything I am still learning what the at platform can take but I am not learning the hard way. I am simply learning by asking questions. There aren't many people that I have found in this area (northern indiana) that are using the platform in anything but 223 and I kinda got bored with that. It is no e to be informed by someone that knows what they are talking about and is willing to share without a smart a** attitude like I have seen other places. Thank you Brian
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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2013 6:02:55 GMT -8
What are the initial calibers that are being looked at to be used in the magnum upper receiver? I know the 358 Hoosier is an oddball designed with the constraints that the state of Indiana have set forth, but it would be nice to build something in 35 cal to hunt with. I know I won't be building for this fall but maybe for next. 80) as far as pressures and sizes of everything I am still learning what the at platform can take but I am not learning the hard way. I am simply learning by asking questions. There aren't many people that I have found in this area (northern indiana) that are using the platform in anything but 223 and I kinda got bored with that. It is no e to be informed by someone that knows what they are talking about and is willing to share without a smart a** attitude like I have seen other places. Thank you Brian The sky is the limit, along with the length constraints. I have been thinking about necking down the 450 to .375. Going to .358 would also be easy. Necking down the 450 case or just cutting a 284 Win case would be right there with the Super short mags with a 308 case head. Just sit back and watch this as the project comes together. We will keep everyone updated as to where its at. As for the calibers, there aren't any set in stone. I have heard about the 6 BR and the 6 BRX. Both of those could be opened to 35 with out a problem. If you have some Ideas throw them out there. You never know where a project like this will take you.
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Post by lkrbuilder13 on Jul 28, 2013 6:33:11 GMT -8
I know some guys are doing the wsm and wssm cartridges in bolt guns and i have heard of a couple in the ar platform but those would require a different bolt and in my own opinion the more standard the parts are the the better. I have also heard they were having feed issues. Utilizing the 308 head would be great.
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Post by lkrbuilder13 on Jul 28, 2013 6:39:49 GMT -8
I'll wait until I get my" hand loaders book of cartridge conversions" that should be her in a couple days to see if there is anything else I can come up with
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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2013 8:49:45 GMT -8
That is a good book for reference. The main problem I see with it is its geared more to bolt actions and single shot actions. Also a lot of the conversions are for the older cartridges. Most of them are not compatible with the AR platform. The over all length magazine is the real down side you have to deal with in the AR. Also the bolt design is not geared for the pressure generated from the big cartridges. That makes the window pretty narrow as to what you can convert and gain anything over the existing cartridges.
When you set out to look for a conversion that will work for your application there are a few things to look at. Bolt size, Standard AR bolts come in 3 basic sizes. .378, .420 and .440 The .473 is a specialty item.
Pressure, These bolts can only withstand so much pressure. 55.000, 52.000 and 50,000 respectively. These are safe limits and it is possible to exceed them, but be careful.
Over all length, If you are going to use standard mags you are limited to 2.260. There are magazines out there that will get you to 2.300 but they can be expensive. It is possible to modify magazines for longer lengths, but a mistake can be expensive.
When you finally get to fire your creation for the first time, I can tell you it is a very rewarding experience.
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Post by GLSHOOTER on Jul 28, 2013 13:03:26 GMT -8
Late to the last party, as usual, but my thoughts after looking over the 357X68, my pics BTW, I agree the shoulder is too small. Economically the Bushmaster is the only game in town IMHO. The cost of doing a new wildcat is pretty steep as is the time investment factor. If the Magnum upper were available some dutiable wildcats could be cooked up but given that lag time for the near future. I would be going Bushy. The only fly in the ointment I see is that BHW doesn't make any barrels of 35 caliber. The only thing big enough is the 45 calibers that are not being produced right now. I do love my BHW tubes so for me it will probably be a Bushmaster chamber down the road.
Historically speaking one alternative, or two really, is to dig up one of the 44 Mag Rugers or find one of the rare as hens teeth 44 Mag M1 Carbine conversions. The first are not that hard to find and the second had issues off and on. If could find one I might buy it if it had been shot a bit proving reliability. The downside of both ideas is obviously they are not AR's.
Greg
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Post by lkrbuilder13 on Jul 28, 2013 15:23:21 GMT -8
The 44 mags are the most popular for hunting in Indiana by far. The 77/44's are around But the 44is only good for 175 if you do your homework. An inexpensive way to get to 225 yards is to get an H&R 357mag and have it re chambered to 357 maximum which even uses the same dies as the mag. The down side, only one shot, a shitty trigger, and an ugly gun. The marlins in the 44 mags have been impossible to get, the only ones I have seen in over 3 years have been ones that have been bought on Gunbroker and transferred through our shop. I saw our Remington rep the other day and when he got my answer for his question "is there anything that you guys need?" He just laughed at my answer of marlin 44 mags. I might just have to have a bolt gun made but I have enjoyed building the guns that I have done. I am not a gunsmith and I don't have the tools to fit headspace or cut a chamber for a custom rifle, and the wife would not agree with the 1500-2000 cost to have a custom gun built. Maybe I will try the bushmaster when those barrels come out.
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Post by GLSHOOTER on Jul 28, 2013 15:33:08 GMT -8
The 44 mags are the most popular for hunting in Indiana by far. The 77/44's are around But the 44is only good for 175 if you do your homework. An inexpensive way to get to 225 yards is to get an H&R 357mag and have it re chambered to 357 maximum which even uses the same dies as the mag. The down side, only one shot, a shitty trigger, and an ugly gun. The marlins in the 44 mags have been impossible to get, the only ones I have seen in over 3 years have been ones that have been bought on Gunbroker and transferred through our shop. I saw our Remington rep the other day and when he got my answer for his question "is there anything that you guys need?" He just laughed at my answer of marlin 44 mags. I might just have to have a bolt gun made but I have enjoyed building the guns that I have done. I am not a gunsmith and I don't have the tools to fit headspace or cut a chamber for a custom rifle, and the wife would not agree with the 1500-2000 cost to have a custom gun built. Maybe I will try the bushmaster when those barrels come out. Money does matter!! LOL One thing about it when the barrels show I have an upper set aside to be opened up for my test bed. Between Ritch and I there will be some good data flow. Greg
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Post by lkrbuilder13 on Jul 28, 2013 17:18:05 GMT -8
How many people do they have that tests the barrels an other products?
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Post by GLSHOOTER on Jul 28, 2013 18:36:18 GMT -8
How many people do they have that tests the barrels an other products? Pro Staff does the testing plus a few professional gun people. Ritch and I do the majority of the wildcat testing. Greg
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Post by lkrbuilder13 on Jul 28, 2013 20:33:41 GMT -8
Are the pressures calculated or are you guys just watching for signs of too much? I have never loaded over recommended book loads but I have talked to the guys that are loading the 358 wsm wildcat and it seems as if there is quite a bit of time and money developing loads for them.
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Post by GLSHOOTER on Jul 28, 2013 21:02:50 GMT -8
Are the pressures calculated or are you guys just watching for signs of too much? I have never loaded over recommended book loads but I have talked to the guys that are loading the 358 wsm wildcat and it seems as if there is quite a bit of time and money developing loads for them. On wildcat development we tend to use a combined experience level of over seven decades between us. With the Savage barrels coming out there will be pressure data available for us. Common sense and a belief in ones mortality go a long way. Greg
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Post by lkrbuilder13 on Jul 28, 2013 21:31:14 GMT -8
developing loads for them.[/quote]On wildcat development we tend to use a combined experience level of over seven decades between us. With the Savage barrels coming out there will be pressure data available for us. Common sense and a belief in ones mortality go a long way.
Greg[/quote] Go Superman. Are there some new wildcats that will be emerging with the bhw savage barrels? I have only got one savage and it is a 223 but I don't dare mess with it because it shoots well. Better than a dime at 200 yards. If it didn't shoot well it would be good to build off from.
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Post by GLSHOOTER on Jul 29, 2013 5:21:21 GMT -8
developing loads for them. On wildcat development we tend to use a combined experience level of over seven decades between us. With the Savage barrels coming out there will be pressure data available for us. Common sense and a belief in ones mortality go a long way. Greg[/quote] Go Superman. Are there some new wildcats that will be emerging with the bhw savage barrels? I have only got one savage and it is a 223 but I don't dare mess with it because it shoots well. Better than a dime at 200 yards. If it didn't shoot well it would be good to build off from.[/quote] Yes. Chamberings to be announced. Greg
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