|
|
Post by clyancey on Jul 9, 2013 17:43:40 GMT -8
Planning on trying my hand with a .243AI build (based off a Savage short action). My goals are:
1) Lowest Possible Recoil while
2) Saving coyote pelts and
3) having a round very capable of knocking coyotes dead out to 1000 yards
My research is showing that in order to have cake and eat it to, I will most likely have to shoot two bullets. I'm eyeing a 55 gr Nosler or 58 gr vmax (Ritch reports low pelt damage with this bullet) for 0-500 yards and swapping rounds(and making appropriate scope corrections) to something like a berger 105 hybrid/107 SMK/115 DTAC/117 Matrix for the 500 yard plus shots.
Considering this, what do you guys think? What is your experiance with 6mm bullets, rocoil, and pelt damage? Is this possible and realistic? Thanks
Cheyenne
|
|
|
|
Post by Babaganoush on Jul 9, 2013 22:09:00 GMT -8
The only 'yote I took with my .243 win was at 120 yards, shot with an 87 grain VMax. Shot position was just behind the shoulder, and blew through, leaving a large exit wound. MV was at 3200 fps. Clearly more energy than needed to preserve the pelt.
|
|
|
|
Post by clyancey on Jul 10, 2013 16:15:20 GMT -8
While energy is a figure to pay attention to, I've come to believe that the most important factor is terminal performance of the bullets. The think there are two ways for bullets with "excessive" energy to still save pelts/minimize damage: 1)fragment/explode after a couple inches of penetration (tricky and sensitive to velocity and extreme excessive energy) or 2) have controlled/minimal expansion (more than FMJ though) like VLD's often do (less sensitive to velocity and extreme excessive energy since much of the energy isn't conducted to the tissue).
Thus, according to my aforementioned theory, a 58 gr vmax works well because it quickly explodes internally and is not able to punch though and a 105-115 vld will punch through every time but probably make small holes.....unfortunately, an 87 gr vmax falls in between (might not fall apart quickly enough or maybe its transferring too much energy to be contained in the depth of a coyote).
|
|
|
|
Post by Babaganoush on Jul 10, 2013 21:55:54 GMT -8
While energy is a figure to pay attention to, I've come to believe that the most important factor is terminal performance of the bullets. The think there are two ways for bullets with "excessive" energy to still save pelts/minimize damage: 1)fragment/explode after a couple inches of penetration (tricky and sensitive to velocity and extreme excessive energy) or 2) have controlled/minimal expansion (more than FMJ though) like VLD's often do (less sensitive to velocity and extreme excessive energy since much of the energy isn't conducted to the tissue). Thus, according to my aforementioned theory, a 58 gr vmax works well because it quickly explodes internally and is not able to punch though and a 105-115 vld will punch through every time but probably make small holes.....unfortunately, an 87 gr vmax falls in between (might not fall apart quickly enough or maybe its transferring too much energy to be contained in the depth of a coyote). No argument at all, and I believe your theories to be sound. My intent, when I selected the 87 grain Vmax, was to utilize what I'd hoped would be a good "all around" round. Better ballistics than the 58 and easier on the pocketbook than the 105's. As far as energy transfer is concerned, I am fairly certain it was good, but obviously more than the little song dog could contain, as the exit wound was massive. It was a fairly young female, and not very large.  Either way, I am a firm believer in the light pills as effective coyote stoppers, as my 22-250 is very effective with the 55's, and they haven't gone through one, yet. Those run close to 3500 fps, and the KE is plainly visible in that the dogs literally go down the instant they're hit. The 58 grain .243 should exhibit similar performance, at comparable velocities. As far as effectiveness at long range, I have managed to get some good hits (but no kills) on pdog mounds at 1000 yards, but the little 87's just get pushed around too much to make it cost effective. A 105 is the much better choice for that kind of range, but even they can ice pick a prairie dog, as a friend of mine with his Dasher proved with a 1005 yard kill. Nowhere the amount of tissue as a coyote, but the terminal ballistics were clearly compromised at that range. He had used a soft tip for that shot, and we both feel the 105 AMax would likely have performed better. |
|
|
|
Post by clyancey on Jul 10, 2013 23:10:44 GMT -8
While energy is a figure to pay attention to, I've come to believe that the most important factor is terminal performance of the bullets. The think there are two ways for bullets with "excessive" energy to still save pelts/minimize damage: 1)fragment/explode after a couple inches of penetration (tricky and sensitive to velocity and extreme excessive energy) or 2) have controlled/minimal expansion (more than FMJ though) like VLD's often do (less sensitive to velocity and extreme excessive energy since much of the energy isn't conducted to the tissue). Thus, according to my aforementioned theory, a 58 gr vmax works well because it quickly explodes internally and is not able to punch though and a 105-115 vld will punch through every time but probably make small holes.....unfortunately, an 87 gr vmax falls in between (might not fall apart quickly enough or maybe its transferring too much energy to be contained in the depth of a coyote). No argument at all, and I believe your theories to be sound. My intent, when I selected the 87 grain Vmax, was to utilize what I'd hoped would be a good "all around" round. Better ballistics than the 58 and easier on the pocketbook than the 105's. As far as energy transfer is concerned, I am fairly certain it was good, but obviously more than the little song dog could contain, as the exit wound was massive. It was a fairly young female, and not very large. Either way, I am a firm believer in the light pills as effective coyote stoppers, as my 22-250 is very effective with the 55's, and they haven't gone through one, yet. Those run close to 3500 fps, and the KE is plainly visible in that the dogs literally go down the instant they're hit. The 58 grain .243 should exhibit similar performance, at comparable velocities. As far as effectiveness at long range, I have managed to get some good hits (but no kills) on pdog mounds at 1000 yards, but the little 87's just get pushed around too much to make it cost effective. A 105 is the much better choice for that kind of range, but even they can ice pick a prairie dog, as a friend of mine with his Dasher proved with a 1005 yard kill. Nowhere the amount of tissue as a coyote, but the terminal ballistics were clearly compromised at that range. He had used a soft tip for that shot, and we both feel the 105 AMax would likely have performed better. I'm afraid of exactly what you just said, that the 105 VLD will "Ice Pick" through dogs at the extended ranges. I'm curious at what speed was the Dasher pushing the 105? I would like to run some numbers to see what the velocity and energy would be for the Dasher vs a 243AI. I'm scared the 105 Amax would destroy dogs in the mid range of 500-800 yards.....and while I'm willing and capable to work with a two bullet system, I can't imagine hunting with three different rounds as practical at all. Any experience with meplat pointing, trimming, and annealing with the VLD's? Curious if I could encourage just a little bit of expansion with the VLDs, but not so much that it would blow large holes in the "middle" ranges like the Amax. Thanks for the input! |
|
|
|
Post by Babaganoush on Jul 11, 2013 8:10:49 GMT -8
I'm afraid of exactly what you just said, that the 105 VLD will "Ice Pick" through dogs at the extended ranges. I'm curious at what speed was the Dasher pushing the 105? I would like to run some numbers to see what the velocity and energy would be for the Dasher vs a 243AI. I'm scared the 105 Amax would destroy dogs in the mid range of 500-800 yards.....and while I'm willing and capable to work with a two bullet system, I can't imagine hunting with three different rounds as practical at all. Any experience with meplat pointing, trimming, and annealing with the VLD's? Curious if I could encourage just a little bit of expansion with the VLDs, but not so much that it would blow large holes in the "middle" ranges like the Amax. Thanks for the input! No, I haven't done any bullet smithing, and I've never shot any of the Berger VLD's. my friend tells me his Dasher is pushing the 105 AMax at 2900 fps. Good luck in your search. With any luck, someone else can share their experience in this. |
|
|
|
Post by brentparker on Jul 13, 2014 15:53:03 GMT -8
The 105 Berger Hybrid will not be a good fur bullet. Have shot coyotes with it out to 525 with it and exits have been baseball sized with a 6 XC 1-8 twist barrel. I am looking for the same thing and just ordered 105 Scenars and 107 SMK.
Brent
|
|
45r
New Member
Posts: 8 
|
Post by 45r on Dec 13, 2014 11:58:37 GMT -8
I know this is an old thread but I'm thinking about a 22inch lite 243LBC and wondering what would be fur friendly for coyotes.
|
|
|
|
Post by GLSHOOTER on Dec 13, 2014 19:09:18 GMT -8
I know this is an old thread but I'm thinking about a 22inch lite 243LBC and wondering what would be fur friendly for coyotes.
Maybe Ritch will chime in. Those big Bergers might be the ticket. Greg |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2014 18:07:13 GMT -8
I know this is an old thread but I'm thinking about a 22inch lite 243LBC and wondering what would be fur friendly for coyotes.
The only bullets I have had success with are the light weights. The big Berger's seem to punch right through and tear a big hole when they exit. Or slip right through and do nothing but punch a caliber sized hole. When this happens you have a tracking job on your hands. Coyotes don't typically bleed a lot from a pass through with no bullet expansion. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2015 12:45:47 GMT -8
Planning on trying my hand with a .243AI build (based off a Savage short action). My goals are: 1) Lowest Possible Recoil while 2) Saving coyote pelts and 3) having a round very capable of knocking coyotes dead out to 1000 yards My research is showing that in order to have cake and eat it to, I will most likely have to shoot two bullets. I'm eyeing a 55 gr Nosler or 58 gr vmax (Ritch reports low pelt damage with this bullet) for 0-500 yards and swapping rounds(and making appropriate scope corrections) to something like a berger 105 hybrid/107 SMK/115 DTAC/117 Matrix for the 500 yard plus shots. Considering this, what do you guys think? What is your experiance with 6mm bullets, rocoil, and pelt damage? Is this possible and realistic? Thanks Cheyenne 1000 yards would be too far for the .204 ruger ...but you can have a ton of fun with it inside of 600 yards. Fast flying flat shootin' 32 grain VMax's will put the smack on them I took one last week at 330 yards.....cake:)
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2015 12:46:28 GMT -8
Oh Yea and no exit would with this round You cant get cleaner than that |
|
