Wyo7200
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Post by Wyo7200 on Jul 4, 2015 14:03:52 GMT -8
I've been working on a few loads for this (.300 blkout) caliber and am having a heck of a time getting any consistency in QL's estimates for the three loads I'm trying. I worked some loads up before I had QL, and once I picked up the software and explored it, I've found it invaluable. Problem is, with the polygonal rifling and increased velocities--- QL's estimates are not right. My previous loads are showing way above the 55K Saami spec. I pulled the rest to redo the work up before I knew about the ability to change the rifling. Yet, even now my old loads do not equate well in QL. I may have been safe, but I'd rather BE safe than sorry. Another reason why I am redoing the loads is the day to day group size fluctuation.
My chrono'ed velocities are 150-200 fps faster than published data. My case capacity is less than what Nosler (and I assume hodgdon) lists so I know my min and max will be different than their data, and I'd be a bit faster fps/ higher pressure than what they list as well.
QL allows you build a caliber and set the rifling to polygonal. I'm thinking this could help, but I need the radius measurements of the barrel and understand that this info may be kept secret. I'll slug it or take it to a gunsmith to get it blueprinted, but thought I'd ask here first if anyone can help.
Before I splurge on Pressure Trace II - reaching out to anyone that has been down this path before.
Thanks in advance.
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Post by wfa on Jul 4, 2015 19:28:32 GMT -8
I know this doesn't answer your question(s), but what is your barrel length, bullet weight, and velocity you're seeing? I have three 300 BLK, two with 5R, one BHW. The 5R barrels are 16", the BHW 18". I see very slight velocity increases with the longer BHW barrel than with the 5R, typically 30fps. I don't have QL software, so I do load development "the old fashioned" way. Walt ================================ I think I may have missed your point! If your concern is about Quickload, you might try www.300blktalk.com/forum/. I did a search on the forum for "Quickload" and got a lot of hits. I recall reading something about QL not giving expected results for the BLK, but didn't find it. In any case, I'm pretty sure someone on that forum could answer your questions.
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Post by GLSHOOTER on Jul 4, 2015 20:04:17 GMT -8
Quick Load cannot be relied on as a definitive tool for determining pressures period. You have a SAAMI cartridge. I would take what the big guys list as pressures and go with it. We know that polygonal rifling drops pressures and speeds are up for a given load across the board.
You can use QL to get a base idea on powders to use with some STARTING numbers. Forget using it to determine maximum load/pressures. We use stress gauge testing when finalizing wildcat loadings. For garden variety cases the books and observations on case changes, primers and velocities set our parameters. The last process gave us surprisingly accurate top loadings in the A-30.
Greg
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Wyo7200
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Post by Wyo7200 on Jul 4, 2015 21:40:51 GMT -8
Thanks guys. Walt, I have a 16" barrel. The first loads I did for it were awesome. 4 shot bughole and last round flyer. Primers were flat, but I don't put a lot of emphasis on primers due to their different cup strengths. My load was 21.3gr of 1680 under a 125gr btip in converted fc brass. Using their data, and noslers. Turns out, my converted fc cases are 2-3 grains less h2o capacity than what nosler lists, and at a tested coal of 2.060... (I tested mine at 2.200 108% case fill) That's a lot of crunch. So, compressed load near the max, with a smaller case. And only an estimated 80% burn? That's throwing away ~ 3gr of powder each shot. I like my barrel so I stopped using that load and pulled them. Not sure how much the poly rifling lowers the pressure, but I'm pretty sure I was kissing the saami psi. I think velocity was 2130 fps. Not too different compared to noslers 1680 data. Probably 50-70 fps increase if burn rate is equal.
It's h110 that things get weird. I'll post its data tomorrow.
Pressure trace II is on my to get list... I don't rely on QL as the definitive. I understand its limitations and that it's a mathematical estimation. I do use it to help identify obt nodes and for what ifs, powder selection, and tailored supplements to published data. I've had great success with it, identifying a reachable node at safe pressures- (tested along the way by empirical data and range time. This node seems to be est. at 15k-10k from max saami.). Last caliber (6.5 creedmoor) I did took 15 shots to find a combo that produced a 1" group at 200 yards. Have no desire to try reaching the higher node, which seems to always kiss the max saami pressure.
Since posting the original, I've backwards engineered the data that QL was asking for, but it's not consistent between powders. Maybe it is right and the powder burn rate is off. I'll explain it more when I'm at my computer tomorrow. Thanks again for your time and input.
Happy Independence Day!
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Post by wfa on Jul 5, 2015 6:29:48 GMT -8
Too many ribs, lots of fireworks, lots of grandkids... great 4th!
I've found H110/WW296 to be a "little" unpredictable at times, and has a very narrow "happy place", at least in the 300 AAC. I use CCI450 primers, LC12 modified cases, Speer 110gr SP. 20gr H110 gives 2346fps/SD12; 20.5gr H110 gives 2419fps/SD33 - both from 16" barrels. I don't consider the 20.5gr load to be "unsafe", and I'd use it for hunting, but I don't see it as a good "everyday" diet. The 20gr load is SLIGHTLY more accurate, at least on the day I tested them. Data is from 10 rounds, each.
For "everyday" shooting, I've found 19.5gr of IMR4227 (all the other variables the same as the H110 loads) to be a very good compromise load - 2180fps/SD32, but giving me the same accuracy at the H110 with a whole lot less noise (lower muzzle pressure?). The biggest advantage is that IMR4227 is actually AVAILABLE.
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Post by GLSHOOTER on Jul 5, 2015 6:55:21 GMT -8
I might try some Lil'Gun in the 300 BLK ad leave that 1680 on the shelf. I've not done much with the BLK as the A-30 has proven itself to be a step up based on my shooting numbers. The chronograph has done most for me and as I mentioned the results we verified with a pressure set up have shown to be about what I expected.
Keep us posted as you chase this one down. When you get he pressure trace rig the numbers will be educational.
Greg
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Wyo7200
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Post by Wyo7200 on Jul 5, 2015 9:06:20 GMT -8
Walt,
Those numbers seem close to mine. What is your OAL?
Here are some loads that I’ve documented. It’s tricky to explain where I am coming from and grossly over estimated the FPS over published data in my original post. It's more 30-100 fps if I do proper math and not aggressively round the numbers. Knowing that published data is used for development in BHW barrels… I’m wondering how much PSI is alleviated by the poly’s and how much is QL’s struggle with estimating large amounts of fast burning powder…
They are close in line with published data, until I change the seating depth to match theirs. For example- projecting the measurements I have (namely powder burn rate), trying to load to Noslers published data looks really bad. Seating a 125gr Btip .100 deeper than what I tested in the case to match Nosler tested OAL, estimates the pressure to be 80387 psi with 17.8gr with my “burn rate”. Resetting the burn rate of the powder to what QL lists for H110, it estimates 70388 psi. Since I seated longer (2.160) to begin with, the PSI estimate is 56545 with my BR. My cases are 1.5gr less volume than Nosler’s tested case (comparing 125gr load data) so I should expect to see higher velocities and pressures at lower charges due to the difference in case capacity with these cases. Which is evident in going over the highest velocity listed by nosler at .2 gr less. All this got me curious to know what my PSI's really are.
My notes indicate some ejector marks on the brass of the 17.8 loads and several have lost primer pocket tension. Brushed it off for a while as being typical FC cases.
Chrono is Magnetospeed.
125gr BTIP, Federal cases, 24.1gr capacity, 17.6gr usable case cap (based on Nos tested OAL) , 1.358 oal
Powder Chrg OAL Brass Primer Vel
1680 21.5gr 2.160 FC brass REM 6 ½ 2051 (great load)
1680 21.3gr 2.200 FC brass CCI 400 2006
1680 21.1gr 2.160 FC brass REM 6 ½ 2010
1680 19.9gr 2.160 FC brass REM 6 ½ 1897
1680 19.7gr 2.160 FC brass REM 6 ½ 1870
1680 19.5gr 2.160 FC brass REM 6 ½ 1851
H110 17.8gr 2.160 FC brass CCI 400 2165 (great load)
H110 17.5gr 2.160 FC brass CCI 400 2121
H110 17.1gr 2.160 FC brass CCI 400 2121
H110 16.9gr 2.160 FC brass CCI 400 2068
H110 16.9gr 2.160 FC brass REM 6 1/2 2090
H110 16.6gr 2.160 FC brass CCI 400 2055
H110 16.6gr 2.160 FC brass CCI 400 2061
H110 17gr 2.160 FC brass REM 6 1/2 2106
H110 16.6gr 2.160 FC brass CCI 400 2085
110gr VMAX, Federal case: 24.1gr H2o capacity, 19.8gr usable case cap, (based on nos tested OAL) 1.358 case oal
Powder Chrg OAL Brass Primer Vel
H110 20gr 2.100 FC brass CCI 400 unk (great load)
H110 18.3gr 2.100 FC brass CCI 400 2295
H110 18.6gr 2.100 FC brass CCI 400 2322
H110 18.2gr 2.100 FC brass CCI 400 2298
H110 18.2gr 2.100 FC brass REM 6 1/2 2329
H110 17.8gr 2.100 FC brass REM 6 1/2 2324
H110 17.8gr 2.100 FC brass CCI 400 2252
110gr VMAX, FIOCCHI case: 23.4gr H2o capacity, 18.9gr usable case cap (based on nos tested OAL), 1.358 case oal
Powder Chrg OAL Brass Primer Vel
H110 18.4gr 2.100 FIO brass CCI 400 2318
H110 18.3gr 2.100 FIO brass CCI 400 2326
H110 17.9gr 2.100 FIO brass REM 6 1/2 2322
H110 17.5gr 2.100 FIO brass REM 6 1/2 2280
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Wyo7200
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Post by Wyo7200 on Jul 5, 2015 9:10:30 GMT -8
I might try some Lil'Gun in the 300 BLK ad leave that 1680 on the shelf. I've not done much with the BLK as the A-30 has proven itself to be a step up based on my shooting numbers. The chronograph has done most for me and as I mentioned The results we verified with a pressure set up have shown to be about what I expected. Keep us posted as you chase this one down. When you gett he pressure trace rig the numbers wil be educational. Greg Thanks Greg. I'm curious and dont want to pretend that I know what the A-30 is. wildcat? I'm saving my 1680 for subsonics. If H110 continues to be a pain for now, I'll try some Lil'gun too. I will certainly post what PT says. My difference in components from published data has me curious to know for sure.
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Wyo7200
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Post by Wyo7200 on Jul 5, 2015 9:13:01 GMT -8
Too many ribs, lots of fireworks, lots of grandkids... great 4th! I've found H110/WW296 to be a "little" unpredictable at times, and has a very narrow "happy place", at least in the 300 AAC. I use CCI450 primers, LC12 modified cases, Speer 110gr SP. 20gr H110 gives 2346fps/SD12; 20.5gr H110 gives 2419fps/SD33 - both from 16" barrels. I don't consider the 20.5gr load to be "unsafe", and I'd use it for hunting, but I don't see it as a good "everyday" diet. The 20gr load is SLIGHTLY more accurate, at least on the day I tested them. Data is from 10 rounds, each. For "everyday" shooting, I've found 19.5gr of IMR4227 (all the other variables the same as the H110 loads) to be a very good compromise load - 2180fps/SD32, but giving me the same accuracy at the H110 with a whole lot less noise (lower muzzle pressure?). The biggest advantage is that IMR4227 is actually AVAILABLE. I love the 4227 for 150's! I had some loaded at 17.3gr under 150 Btip going 1914 fps. Gave me MOA at 100.
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Post by GLSHOOTER on Jul 5, 2015 9:46:15 GMT -8
I might try some Lil'Gun in the 300 BLK ad leave that 1680 on the shelf. I've not done much with the BLK as the A-30 has proven itself to be a step up based on my shooting numbers. The chronograph has done most for me and as I mentioned The results we verified with a pressure set up have shown to be about what I expected. Keep us posted as you chase this one down. When you gett he pressure trace rig the numbers wil be educational. Greg Thanks Greg. I'm curious and dont want to pretend that I know what the A-30 is. wildcat? I'm saving my 1680 for subsonics. If H110 continues to be a pain for now, I'll try some Lil'gun too. I will certainly post what PT says. My difference in components from published data has me curious to know for sure. A-30 is the American 30 we have developed here and have posted about extensively. It is a quantum leap up above the BLK in several areas like bullet weights and velocities. A quick look at your data would tell me to dump the primer choice and go with a 450 or a 7 1/2 in the case. Also in my case personally I don't care what QL says, what chronograph speeds I get or how the primers look if I am loosing pockets I am over pressure for that brass and need to back it down. Greg
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Wyo7200
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Post by Wyo7200 on Jul 5, 2015 13:38:32 GMT -8
Awesome! I'll have to look at it a little more when I get off work. Thought I'd add some eye candy to this thread, courtesy of the BHW barrel on a Stag Arms upper/Lower. I need to try some 450's & 7 1/2's. The FC brass is converted range brass. I should get some actual .300 blkout brass to mess with while I'm at it. Watching shark week as my annual reminder of why I stay out of the ocean...
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Post by GLSHOOTER on Jul 5, 2015 14:55:49 GMT -8
Here's some A-30 for your thoughts. Greg
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Post by wfa on Jul 5, 2015 17:49:50 GMT -8
Wyo7200, OAL with the Speer 110 SP is 1.968" - not sure that will help you. AA1680 will work, but it's a bit slow burning for the light weight bullets; I've tried 2400, but I've found it very unpredictable in the 300 BLK and accuracy is "acceptable" - if it's all you have to work with.
Just a couple of thoughts (my $.02): The 300 BLK is pretty much an M1 Carbine on steroids; don't try to make it something it isn't. 150gr FMJ are "inexpensive", are fairly accurate, and are a lot of fun to shoot. Most seem to think that the best bullet weight for the BLK is the 110, but I'm finding that 125-130gr may be a bit better (energy, range, drift), but the BLK is never going to have "long legs". Cast bullets, of all weights (not just the 245gr!) seem to be ignored, but I've found them to be very accurate in the BLK and have not caused any leading issues in the three rifles I've tried them in (gas system, nor bore).
Walt
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Wyo7200
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Post by Wyo7200 on Jul 7, 2015 17:34:09 GMT -8
I agree- 110's are fast out of it, but I like the 125's better for accuracy right now. 125's and 150's have been the most accurate too. Do your loads have a big jump to the rifling? I've got one at 16.6gr, 2.120 and one at 17, 2.160. Same velocity, but 2-3" difference in group size. With my bolts and other enfield rifled guns, I've been able to narrow onto a OBT node and tweak components to add a tenth of a grain or lengthen the oal, while keeping the same velocity and same accuracy. I'm getting the feeling that obt operates differently in poly's. Another question waiting for PT II.
I don't expect to go past 300 yards with it, but I'll ring some 8" steel plates at 4 and 500 hundred for kicks. It'll be my daughters rifle here shortly. Need to make sure the loads are safe you know?
It looks like 16.6gr h110 @ 2080 has been the most consistent and "accurate," being around 1 moa with an occasional flyer. Partly maybe due to the 3x9 m223 scope I'm using.
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Wyo7200
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Post by Wyo7200 on Jul 7, 2015 17:42:12 GMT -8
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