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Post by Deleted on Nov 23, 2011 15:30:14 GMT -8
As the military has been now zeroing in arrowhead core design I have been looking into this to see if I can try some. I have been playing with my ballistic math and it seems that the 110gr tungsten bullet in 223 would make a great defense option and can put a fight out to 1000 yards with a nice 5.56 case. 110gr .223 . G1 = .6 calculated with a retardation coefficient of .25. Anyone has been able to acquire some and test them? Range (Yds) 0 100 200 300 400 500 600 700 800 900 1000 Speed (fps) 2400 2254 2115 1982 1856 1736 1622 1513 1410 1313 1220 Energy (ft.lb) 1407 1241 1093 960 841 736 642 559 486 421 364 Drop (in) 0.00 3.15 13.14 30.91 57.55 94.31 142.65 204.29 281.27 375.98 491.29 Path (in) -1.50 2.67 0.00 -10.46 -29.77 -59.21 -100.23 -154.55 -224.21 -311.61 -419.59 Elevn(MOA) -2.55 0.00 3.32 7.09 11.28 15.91 21.03 26.69 32.97 39.96 Windage(MOA) 0.33 0.69 1.06 1.45 1.87 2.32 2.79 3.29 3.83 4.40 Time(Sec) 0.00 0.13 0.27 0.41 0.57 0.74 0.92 1.11 1.31 1.53 1.77
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Post by mtbugle on Nov 23, 2011 20:05:17 GMT -8
Interesting. what twist does it take to stabilize that little gem?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 23, 2011 21:41:09 GMT -8
1:8 or 1:7 depending on speed. I used the advertised 2400fps out of the AR carbine.
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Post by gettophilosopher on Nov 23, 2011 23:01:18 GMT -8
That's....beautiful.
And here all I wanted was to get hold of some M855A1. ;D
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Post by Deleted on Nov 24, 2011 6:14:54 GMT -8
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Post by letaz77 on Dec 25, 2011 23:15:42 GMT -8
I don't think they make the new greenbullets in anything heavier than 62g.
Pushing a 110g out of a 223 case at 2400 FPS from a carbine seems nearly impossible considering all the space a bullet this heavy would use inside the casing.
But what do I know?
It does sound very good....perhaps too good.
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Post by oz on Dec 26, 2011 1:11:56 GMT -8
Yeah, that was my first thought... 110gr at 2400 FPS, how many grains of powder and just how compressed would the powder be?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 26, 2011 6:00:16 GMT -8
Not more than a 69gr VLD bullet. But this is all theory at this point. Nothing has been tested yet. I have someone here local looking if they can get samples from the manufacturer and some of the 62gr new penetrators. I will keep this posted here if I can get a few. When I can get the samples and the data I will run them by QL adn do a few estimates. We would start low. The tungsten is not going to stick for main stream bullet application due to new findings about toxicity but it is a nice curiosity project IMO.
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GreenWolf70
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Lead From the Front
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Post by GreenWolf70 on Dec 26, 2011 8:25:38 GMT -8
It indeed is already in use in Afghanistan. My son, who just returned from another tour there was using it. He is saying it is much more accurate and lethal at 300-600m than the M855 it replaces. Typically they are seeing the bullet separate inside targets even at ranges greater than 400m. When his unit arrived the Taliban were typically standing up at ranges greater than 400m to show their disdain for the 5.56mm round. They aren't doing that any more where the M855A1 has been deployed. Haven't heard anything about hard target performance, or at close range against soft targets. Typical engagement ranges in Afghanistan now are at 400+ meters.
I am also hearing that the 7.62mm SCAR-H rifle has been a failure in Afghanistan with many reliability issues and loss of confidence by troops.
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Post by The Wolverine on Dec 26, 2011 8:31:40 GMT -8
I don't think they make the new greenbullets in anything heavier than 62g. Pushing a 110g out of a 223 case at 2400 FPS from a carbine seems nearly impossible considering all the space a bullet this heavy would use inside the casing. But what do I know? It does sound very good....perhaps too good. tungsten is much heavier than lead, so it probably is not much longer than a 77gr SMK, so infringing on powder capacity will not be as big of a problem as it would seem.
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Post by letaz77 on Dec 26, 2011 23:02:06 GMT -8
I don't think they make the new greenbullets in anything heavier than 62g. Pushing a 110g out of a 223 case at 2400 FPS from a carbine seems nearly impossible considering all the space a bullet this heavy would use inside the casing. But what do I know? It does sound very good....perhaps too good. tungsten is much heavier than lead, so it probably is not much longer than a 77gr SMK, so infringing on powder capacity will not be as big of a problem as it would seem. If you look at the picture and scematics if the new M855A1, it would be clear the new bullet is already longer than the old "ball ammo" at he same weight; that may have something to do with the increase in accuracy. So if they are longer at same weight (62g), wouldn't they be longer at heavier pills as well?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 27, 2011 7:46:10 GMT -8
Hi, The M885A1 was originally intended to use tungsten but in the end it was abandoned due to environmental and health concerns and by using metal alloy which is cleaner and cheaper. So in the end the M885A1 62gr is a tad longer than the current M885 62gr because there is no lead or tungsten in it. The same way a 70gr Barnes TSX is longer than a 69gr SMK, there is no lead inside so it has to be longer to meet the grain requirement. Sectional density doesn't improve but ballistic coefficient does.
The one in the pic is in fact a 110gr tungsten one from liberty so we cannot compare both. They both use the same arrowhead core but it would be like comparing apples with oranges.
Tungsten is very expensive too so this might work better for everyone in the end. As a curiosity is ok but I see more restriction coming in the so called "green ammo" made with tungsten due health concerns. Also stay away from the frangible ammunition in close quarters using tungsten compounds, it has been classified as a cancer hazard. Tungsten disulfide in grease is ok but in applications where it goes airbone is really dangerous unless you use a filter mask. Now the military has a problem to clean some of the ranges where they did the tungsten testing. It has been documented the heavy metal made it into the ground water and it is much worse than lead.
I find this very interesting due to the fact than frangible ammunition was originally sold as lead free, "green" option. Now it is found it is actually worse than the first problem they claimed to have resolve. If you see people getting sick later on you will see the law suits flying. It is just a matter of time.
Frangible ammo is a good idea and it can be done, just w/o tungsten or any other hazardous material.
I hope this helps. Cheers.
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Post by The Wolverine on Dec 27, 2011 7:55:34 GMT -8
tungsten is much heavier than lead, so it probably is not much longer than a 77gr SMK, so infringing on powder capacity will not be as big of a problem as it would seem. If you look at the picture and scematics if the new M855A1, it would be clear the new bullet is already longer than the old "ball ammo" at he same weight; that may have something to do with the increase in accuracy. So if they are longer at same weight (62g), wouldn't they be longer at heavier pills as well? The 62gr green is definitely longer than ball, but all of the 100gr+ 5.56 bullets I have been told about being tested by the military, have been solid, or jacked tungsten. Which will be a good bit shorter than a equal weight lead core bullet, or alloy core like the new 62gr green.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 27, 2011 19:08:41 GMT -8
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