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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2012 19:59:32 GMT -8
Good software.
I ran the 95grainers from Berger by QL and the model using the VLD mags seating at 2.35 COAL and game me the below assuming we can do 2795fps. Now all I have left is getting the right barrel!!!
6x45 24" 95gr VLD 2795 95 0.486 200 0 100 0.00 200 5 3.0 5 Range (Yds) 0 100 200 300 400 500 600 700 800 900 1000 Speed (fps) 2795 2599 2412 2235 2066 1905 1753 1609 1473 1345 1224 Energy (ft.lb) 1648 1425 1228 1053 900 766 648 546 458 381 316 Drop (in) 0.00 2.33 9.82 23.30 43.75 72.38 110.63 160.29 223.52 303.04 402.23 Path (in) -1.50 1.83 0.00 -7.81 -22.60 -45.57 -78.16 -122.15 -179.73 -253.59 -347.11 Elevn(MOA) -1.74 0.00 2.48 5.38 8.68 12.41 16.62 21.40 26.83 33.06 Windage(MOA) 0.33 0.69 1.07 1.48 1.92 2.40 2.92 3.48 4.09 4.76 Time(Sec) 0.00 0.11 0.23 0.36 0.50 0.65 0.82 0.99 1.19 1.40 1.64
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Post by GLSHOOTER on Feb 14, 2012 8:59:55 GMT -8
It will be interesting to see when the rubber meets the road if you get those numbers. I'll have some real world stuff up later today if time allows it.
Greg
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Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2012 14:59:31 GMT -8
Now I have to ask you do you think the throat will handle 2.35COAL out of the VLD mags w/o crushing into the lands? This seems doable theory based on your test but theory at this point nevertheless. I have one chamber that manages 2.35 ok but other is max at 2.311 It looks good at 500ft of altitude and cold here so for you should be easier as you are higher up.
The little round that could. I think I can, ...I think I can! lol.
Thanks.
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Post by GLSHOOTER on Feb 14, 2012 16:54:32 GMT -8
Now I have to ask you do you think the throat will handle 2.35COAL out of the VLD mags w/o crushing into the lands? This seems doable theory based on your test but theory at this point nevertheless. I have one chamber that manages 2.35 ok but other is max at 2.311 It looks good at 500ft of altitude and cold here so for you should be easier as you are higher up. The little round that could. I think I can, ...I think I can! lol. Thanks. Well I shot the 105 Bergers at 2.377 and at 2.255 (MAG LENGTH) and the pressures were good and the velocities were about 20 FPS SLOWER at MAG LENGTH!! I just shot the 87 Hornadys at 2.476 and 2.588 (MAG LENGTH) pressures were good and velocities were 50 FPS SLOWER at MAG LENGTH. I only got 2955 out of the 87's but it looks like I can push more if I rub my rabbits foot and tip the can. I'm trying to get some time to post the results but I can tel you at a tad lower than MAX both COL's are shooting VERY well. I haven't bought that bullet so I don't know what my distance to lands is. You don't have a BHW there yet do you? I bet you have more room with it on the lands. Greg
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Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2012 19:28:36 GMT -8
Not yet but Andy said the barrel is coming this week so I will be able to start testing. I have shot those bullets beforhe from LW and shilen barrels w/o issues but not the 24" or BH barrel. It looks to me they should work if the 105s worked fine. The key is to get as much off the case as possible ideally .010 off the lands or something like that. WE will see.
I have a few friends very courious about the 24" here from the AR leagues here locally. I do believe a 22" would do just fine too but lets start at 24" and take it from there.
But hey! many thanks for the great info. It helps prepare for the tests ahead. I find the 6x45 very attractive. I have other AR15 uppers that can do 1300+ yards before break speed but never ceased to amaze me what the little 223 case in 6mm can do and accurately so.
6x45 is definitely an easy, fun, affordable, accurate wildcat option for the AR. Great all around sensible alternative in deed. ...easy on the barrels and pocket too.
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Post by GLSHOOTER on Feb 21, 2012 20:20:26 GMT -8
I made my second real serious trip to the range on Sunday and managed to get the numbers crunched. This may be a little disjointed as I need to work up the data from previous trips to post but thought I'd like to get the ball rolling on this. Before I start here are some disclaimers. First off I don't claim to be a Benchrest shooter with an AR. Anyone that has shot an AR off a rest knows they are not the easiest animal to shoot well. Those round hand guards don't bode well for consistency off a rest. I can shoot pretty well at times and I try to realize the platform makes a huge difference. Shooting 20 sub-MOA groups with one of my 204's is pretty easy. For me to get that many with an AR takes me forever and I ain't getting any younger!! Second thing is that I post all the pertinent load data for my records when I shoot targets. Thanks to the quality and intent of my usage of BHW barrels I have started chasing the lands and loading longer than mag length for matches. These are shot single shot so the ability to load long is an option that is to be enjoyed. Oddly enough I had shot some of the same loads at mag length previously and found the velocities slightly lower and the accuracy not statistically different with this bullet. Remember this is MY data, not YOURS. Duplicate it all you want but when you get behind that trigger it is all on you no matter what the outcome. The charge weights on the powder are not necessarily found in every book we have as we all know different makers have different MAX loads. Also with different chamber and throat dimensions some rifles don't mind it hot. The polygonal rifling comes into play with BHW barrels. Everything I have shot has shown a consistent increase in velocity over book values. The cases are not showing pressures like I see in my standard alternative rifles in this chambering. The third area I might point out is that the TEMPERATURE of the testing. These are mild temps for this load work ups. When I lay down and shoot a match this summer at 110 it may be totally different. That is one reason I chose H4895 for these tests as it is one of Hodgdons’s Extreme powders and HP guys all over the US value it for its' temperature tolerance. Enough disclaimers. I selected the 87 grain Hornady HPBT bullet for several reasons. First of all it is a common one to obtain. I have used it in three 6X45's I have shot in matches since the 80's and have taken a bit of metal home for my efforts. The BC is not real low at 0.376 and I can get the velocity up enough to make do with the short 600 yard maximum I intend to shoot with this rifle. Also the price is quite reasonable though I will be trying out some of the higher end Berger match bullets in the next month. Cases were formed with Winchester once fired commercial brass. All were expanded with a Sinclair mandrel after being run through a Dillon sizer/trimmer. Expansion of the .223 neck to .243 resulted in a shortening of the neck by approximately 0.008 and this was taken into account on the trimming process. All were chamfered inside and out. Primer pockets were uniformed and flash holes were deburred. One thing of not was that these cases fired today were expanded with a mandrel of 0.241. Previously I had sized some necks with a 0.259 bushing. Nominal neck size on these unturned cases is 02.61 to 0.262. The bushed neck cases showed an increase across the board of approximately 50 FPS. All charges were dispensed and weighed with a PACT electronic system. This trip was a reshoot of some previously shot loads that showed promise with a bit extra powder charge to see how the rifle would respond to the challenge. Across the board I found the velocities today wee about 50 FPS less than previously tested. As mentioned above I suspect it was due to a lower neck tension on the bullet in this test set. Conditions were clear and sunny. Light winds from one to five MPH at 3 o'clock. The best load with H4895 today was 27 grains. This is getting pretty full considering how long these bullets are. Velocity was 2934 with no signs of pressure with the primers not being flattened, no primer flow, and no bright ejector marks on the case head. One round got away on the two groups fired at this level. This is a very usable load. Oddly enough the velocity of this one was almost identical to a previously shot load that showed excellent grouping with a lower powder charge. I believe that off a bipod and a rear bag that I can pull some good stuff out in the next zip code. I suspect that the harmonics of this load velocity agree with the barrel and I may see similar performance as I dance around that number. On a whim I grabbed a bottle of H335 the day I was loading up these test loads. No attempt was made at a load work up and I selected a charge that from what I could see on published loading data with bullets seated shorter this one would be safe. Nothing like striking out on your own and not wanting to strike out!! Seating depth was the same as the other 87 grain loadings as changing more than one parameter of a test series midstream would invalidate the data gathered. You may note the velocity is somewhat lower but I expected this before hitting the range. The good thing is that once again the pressure signs were not there and there was a relatively good amount of case capacity left for future testing. I have shot this powder before in the 6X45 and found it forgiving but I have never challenged it at more than 100 degrees ambient. Phoenix will be the test by fire in this sumer on this propellant. I did get a bit rambunctious on one trigger pull but I'll let the holes do the talking on this one. It would seem that H335 is another avenue for experiment. I'll be wringing this one out. I have looked into the long range HP loading preferences and RL15 has tuned up as another heavy bullet choice. I will more than likely run these two parallel and see what happens. Of course introducing the big Bergers will also be a step in the evaluation progression. Luckily for me there are two groups shooting F-Class here in Phoenix and I have got hooked in with both of them. I'll do a recon on the next local match and then jump in with both feet. I'll post some of my previous results later on in this thread with some observations and my opinions on what makes this one tick. Greg
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Post by wvhunter1s1k on Mar 5, 2012 17:07:36 GMT -8
Sweet looking rifle! I see you don't use the offset mag release. Thanks for the info!!
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Post by GLSHOOTER on Mar 5, 2012 18:45:44 GMT -8
Sweet looking rifle! I see you don't use the offset mag release. Thanks for the info!! I got one of the first uppers and they didn't have any of the releases available. I now have one but have a different idea on what I am going to do. Once I do one I'll post pics and directions. On another note I'll have some groups and info up tomorrow that are VERY interesting. Greg
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Post by GLSHOOTER on Mar 6, 2012 11:50:25 GMT -8
I made it to the range on Sunday afternoon after a bit of a push in the AM. Got up and hit the reloading room at 0630 and loaded up sixty rounds of test ammo. I decided to stick with the 87 grain Hornady BTHP's for this weekends shooting with an expansion on the H335 loads and adding some RL 15 in the mix. I've decided to try this bullet on 600 yard F-Class matches and it has gotten most of my focus at this time. The former is a ball powder and does some show some heat issues when you crank up the temps. It is pretty dense and doesn't use all the case capacity that is available but it is a good powder in the varmint world. I want to see what it does with some of these loads later at 110 as it was only a mild 79 on this winters day. The latter, RL 15, is historically used for the heavy 223 bullets in HP matches and, by history, is not a temperature sensitive as the H 335. This one starts filling the case up as it is not near as dense as the other. It should be noted that these bullets are quite long and if you seat them to mag length they go way down in the case. I seated them out to approximately 0.004 off the lands and when I did this the base of the bullet was barley protruding past the shoulder/case neck junction. A very slight squeeze on the powder charge. One other thing of note is that the charge weights on my loads are listed with the targets. They appeared safe in my rifle and I take responsibility for my fingers/toes not yours. Trust nothing on the net until you make your own evaluations and decisions. Remember even tried and true recipes from actual experience and book publishing can cause pressure problems for many rifles out there due to a variety of factors beyond the shooters control. That being said here we go. 79 degrees, sunny, light winds at 6 to 8 o'clock from 0 to 8 MPH. Range 100 yards. First up is the H335 loads that worked well. The top charge weight load showed no pressure indicators in my rifle. The first load, 25.5, is one I shot a week or so ago that showed promise and it did it a again for me. This one would be a keeper in anyones book. You may note that prior groups posted were about 100 FPS slower in the same load of 25.5 grains. Temperature in the first ones was in the low 60's and these were in the upper 70's. Obviously a heat component comes into play here. This one got a bit more powder and the velocity came up to almost that magic 3000 FPS number. Pressures were getting there but not to any level that concerns me. As I said, the 110 temperature test will be definitive for use in matches here. I went with some RL 15 on my next batch of test ammo and it didn't disappoint. The pressures were excellent across the board. Top load on this one was obviously putting some pressure in play but no primer flow was noted nor were the tell tale signs of bright ejector marks present. Te first target shot at 26.0 told me that my choice was possibly a good one. I liked the velocity reading and on reviewing other loads I have shot this node of 2930 + or - seems to bring out the best in my groups. Harmonics at work in a good way for sure. The second RL 15 target was with a tip of the can higher charge weight. This one had me doing double takes from the bench. It seemed like I was in the groove and when the chronograph talked to me a smiled a lot!! (Yes, my chronograph does talk!! Thank you CED) 3000 + FPS out of an 87 grain bullet is going to work downrange in the drop tables. Overall I was pleased with the days testing. The H335 wants to work at 25.5 every time I touch it off. The RL 15 performed so well in grouping and the speeds that I will reshoot that entire batch. Either would work well for winter matches here. The sumer will be the test of fire and I suspect that the RL 15 will get the nod for less spiky behavior. Next week I am going to try some IMR 8208 XBR along side the RL 15. The XBR is a Hodgdon Extreme powder and should be less sensitive to environmental challenges. Once that test is done I think I will have a good grasp on the 87 grainers. I may try some Berger 95's as their BC is pretty stout but I think that I could live with what I have so far. Greg
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Post by wvhunter1s1k on Mar 6, 2012 18:01:14 GMT -8
I'd stick with no.1. .230 is pretty darn good!
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Post by GLSHOOTER on Mar 6, 2012 18:25:54 GMT -8
I'd stick with no.1. .230 is pretty darn good! Sometimes we all just flinch right three times in a row. If I get an AR that will do under 3/4 MOA with several load I am happy. I'm sure with someone like Ritch behind the trigger the groups would look REAL good. I'm just a hacker in that world. I know from my experience that getting tight ones with an AR is much harder than getting the same groups out of a bolt gun. It really does highlight the total package of group shooting when you work with the AR's. A little inconsistency shows up quickly whereas on my bolt guns they appear to be more forgiving in a technique failure. Greg
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Post by GLSHOOTER on Mar 26, 2012 13:46:59 GMT -8
I made it out for some more testing on the 87 grain Hornady BTHP's I want to use in my matches coming up. Weather was the usual Arizona spring 79 with a bit of mild breezy winds up to eight MPH. Powders tested were IMR 8208, Varget and a reshoot on RL15 for verification. I also finished off my H335 testing that while it was not bad does have issues with heat so I ill pas on it for the summer. Data is with the targets but once again this is my rifle and my fingers. Don't take what I shoot for gospel and realize that these are all individual rifles. The BHW barrel and throating comes in to play to help the reloader to some extent so data is not always transferable 1:1. That being said here we go. Best group of IMR 8208 at the lowest charge but a grin more showed some promise. I need to revisit this one. Next up was the Varget. Noted for its use in heavy bullet loads in the 223 and its lack of heat intolerance I found the velocities lower than the other powders I used but the groups were not too shabby considering, unlike like Ritch, I have no pennies to make them look good. [imghttp://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj42/GLShooter/BLACK%20HOLE%206X45/scan0007.jpg][/img] The last powder tested was the RL15 that I had shot previously that really got my attention. It is noted for use in high power matches and shows great heat flexibility. Here are three that looked good. The last one was a bit too large but I think I was a taken back a bit when bullet #1 managed to go completely through the diffuser screen support on my Millennium Chronograph. I couldn't see a bullet strike and then noticed the damage much closer to me!! The wind had kicked up and blew the support into the line of fire. I had to take a break and reset it out of danger so I think that got me out of my groove for a bit. I now have over 400 rounds down range through this rifle. No malfunctions when I shot it from the magazine. The 87's are working well and I will use them in my first 600 yard F-Class match. I found that it would not handle the 105's with the 1:9 twist but at the price for those Bergers I'll not complain too much. The railed upper is soft shooting and when I shot the Varget it was almost like the bolt didn't move at all. A very unusual sensation from what I am use to. I'll be mounting up a new 6.5X20 Vortex Viper scope and putting lead in the butt stock for my matches trying to get up to as close to 21 pounds as I can. I won't quite make it but anything that is 18+ will make me happy. When I go for PD's I'll slim it down a tad though!! ;D Greg
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Post by GLSHOOTER on Mar 31, 2012 15:48:50 GMT -8
After shooting last weekend I decided that enough data and opinions had been formed so this morning I repaired to my reloading room. I took off the Leupold 24 X scope and started opening packages. First up was a pair of Yankee Hill mini-risers. Next package was a set of 30 MM Burris Signature Rings with the inserts. Then the big box came out. I think this one should work. After about ten minutes of adjusting the level of the scope in the rings the deed was done. I went to the closet and picked out a short Harris bipod as this rifle will be shot from prone in the matches I want to enter. Now the tough part. The weight class for F-Open allows up to about 22 pounds. This is a 24" BHW bull barrel under the FF tube but it has been slimmed down to 0.750 under the gas block and further forward. Kind of a nod to dual purposes goals as this will be a long range PD gun for me during the sumer also and as a Tactical Rifle match gun that involves some movement. That being said in reality this rifle is pretty light compared to what It will be up against. I did what any right thinking American guy on a budget would do. I opened up a new bag of #8 chilled shot and started pouring. The butt stock held 2.165 pounds of lead and still let me close the trap door. All told with scope, bipod, and ballast the rifle weighs in at 13.4 pounds. They are a lot lighter than they look. This is about the average weight of my other varmint style AR's when you subtract the shot. I have been invited to an F-Class practice session in two weeks and will shoot my first match on April 22 if I don't find one sooner. So here it is in match trim ready to go do battle with a 2.5" X-ring at 500 yards. And the proof of the pudding. Thanks Carl!! I'll post more as the match comes closer and when I start working up some varmint weight loads. Greg PS: Yes, you aren't seeing double there are two scopes in that picture. But that is material for another thread...............
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Post by GLSHOOTER on Apr 13, 2012 12:14:28 GMT -8
I made it to practice!! 500 yards of nothing but scrub brush and cactus for scenery but was it fun!! Got to the range early and met the guys running the practice and matches locally and picked their brain a bit on match procedures. The weather was great in the upper 60's. No wind and sunny. A great day to try and not embarrass myself. I was shooting the 87 grain Hornady HPBT I've been working with and was ready to go after sight in at 100 yards last weekend. The range was 500 and my drop table told me 9.8 MOA up so I put 10 on it and when my time to shoot came up I gave it my best. First round was on paper!! A 0300 8 and I was happy!! Next shot was an 8 at 0330 so I knew I was close. I fired three more sighters getting the windage and then started my string. Twenty rounds later the tally was 1-X, 7-10's, 5-9's and 7-8's. Total was 181-1X so I was a solid Expert shooter on my first outing. Master class needs a 188 and and based on how it was going on the last six shots that had 4-10's, and x and the last one was a 9 I think I have got a chance for that one PDQ, well barring the wind of course!! The rifle ran 100%. I was using a bipod and two shot bags full of beanie baby plastic beads. Not quite as elegant as my partner who was shooting a 24" bull barrel 223 with a Sinclair front rest and a rear rest support. He was turning knobs getting it lined up and I was doing the same as always squeezing and kneading!! ;D I will be getting me some of those!! I was so pleased with the BHW 6X45. I was calling most of my shots and I feel confident that the rounds that strayed were due to the guy at the trigger and not the gun. The more experienced guys showed some great talent and I have something to strive for in that department. Practice again next Friday and a match on Saturday. I can't wait to try my luck in a real scenario. The guys running the practice are old HP across the course shooters that have been loosing their youthful vision so took up F-Class. I still have my eyesight but I'm a tad too old to start shooting from position. I'll just lay down and pull the trigger when I can. Truly the BHW barrel came through and I predict that it will keep on doing that for many a day on down the road thanks to Carl and the BHW crew. Greg
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Post by GLSHOOTER on Apr 20, 2012 9:46:29 GMT -8
Just a quick note before I head upstairs to load up my 6X6.8 est ammo.
I shot another 500 yard F-Class practice this AM and it went well. The light breeze let me get a bit more understanding of what these 87 grain bullets will do in the wind. Lots of sight adjustment to get where I wanted but finally got dialed in. I do know that I'd better start watching the little grass that is on the range more because I got caught by a lull on a few shots and they didn't go where I called 'em!!
Score was 180-2X/200 so I dropped one point from last week but had a more challenging set of conditions so I am pleased once again.
Tomorrow I shoot the 500 yards for real in my first F-Class match and it should be a blast. I'll post up the good or bad news tomorrow.
Greg
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