6x45mm and the Berger VLD 87 grain bullet

[HuntTXhogs]

Has nobody tried to shoot the 87 grain VLD in a 1:10 twist 6x45mm barrel?

I had a bolt action gun in .270 that loved the Bergers.

My .308 semi AR piston gun hated the Bergers.

It is known that the Berger VLDs like to be resting on the lands to be accurate which would pretty much be a no go for the AR platform BUT

somebody has to have tried them by now?

BB

[Brandon Sneed]

I believe that Harrison over at AR15Performance indicated the reason that he chose the 6x41, was because it allowed the case to be short enough to allow the 87 and above grained VLDs to be cased at the lands... not really sure since I have not found the link (new forum software and archives, ya know).

That being said, I don't think the mag length can be met with the x45, but if you go up to the 6.8SPC case, which is the x41 (or x43 for that matter), then you're able to fit it in... if I remember correctly.

[Deleted]

I run the 87 and 95 Bergers w/o any problems. I even shoot 6x45 with hornady 105s but for that you need a VLD magazine.
Even without the VLD magazine you can find some models that will allow a lot more room. I have a nice set of them and I don't need more. They say the cammegas also allow a tad more. A friend that shoots the AI told me.

[Deleted]

I have shot them out of the old BHW 1 in 10 without any problems , being BHW doesn't make the 10 anymore I have a 24 inch 9 twist ordered and hope they shoot half as good from it has the olders barrels

[Deleted]

This should answer your question. This came from Berger's web stie
April 8, 2009


Getting the Best Precision and Accuracy from VLD bullets in Your Rifle

Filed under: VLDs — mgallagher @ 12:22 pm


Background

VLD bullets are designed with a secant ogive. This ogive shape allows bullets to be more efficient in flight (retain more velocity = less drop and wind deflection). While this result is desirable for many rifle shooters the secant ogive on the VLD bullets produces another result in many rifle. It can be difficult to get the VLD to group well (poor accuracy).

For years we encouraged shooters to use a base of cartridge to end of bearing surface OAL (I will use the term COAL to represent this dimension) which allows the VLD to touch the rifling or to be jammed in the rifling. This provided excellent results for many shooters but there were others who did not achieve top performance with the VLD jammed in their rifling. These shooters were left with the belief that the VLD bullets just won’t shoot in their rifle.

Other groups of shooters were discouraged by our recommendation to touch the rifling. Some of these shooters knew that at some point during a target competition they will be asked to remove a live round. With the bullet jammed in the rifling there was a good chance the bullet will stick in the barrel which could result in an action full of powder. This is hard on a shooter during a match.

Yet another group of shooters who were discouraged by our recommendation to touch the rifling are those who feed through magazines or have long throats. Magazine length rounds loaded with VLDs could not touch the lands in most rifles (this is the specific reason that for years we said VLD bullets do not work well in a magazine). When a rifle could be single fed but was chambered with a long throat a loaded round that was as long as possible still would not touch the rifling.

Until recently, shooters who suffered from these realities were believed to be unable to achieve success with VLD bullets. Admittedly, we would receive the occasional report that a rifle shot very well when jumping the VLD bullets but we discounted these reports as anomalies. It was not until the VLD became very popular as a game hunting bullet that we were then able to learn the truth about getting the VLD bullets to shoot well in a large majority of rifles.

After we proved that the Berger VLD bullets are consistently and exceptionally capable of putting game down quickly we started promoting the VLD to hunters. We were nervous at first as we believe the VLD needed to be in the rifling to shoot well and we also knew that most hunters use a magazine and SAMMI chambers. Our ears were wide open as the feedback was received. It was surprising to hear that most shooters described precision results by saying “this is the best my rifle has ever shot.”

We scratched our heads about this for awhile until we started getting feedback from hunters who were competition shooters as well. Many were the same guys who were telling us for years that the VLDs shoot great when jumped. Since a much larger number of shooters were using the VLD bullets with a jump we started comparing all the feedback and have discovered the common characteristics in successful reports which gave us the information needed to get VLD working in your rifle. We were able to relay these characteristics to several shooters who were struggling with VLD bullets. Each shooter reported success after applying our recommendation.

Solution

The following has been verified by numerous shooters in many rifles using bullets of different calibers and weights. It is consistent for all VLD bullets. What has been discovered is that VLD bullets shoot best when loaded to a COAL that puts the bullet in a “sweet spot”. This sweet spot is a band .030 to .040 wide and is located anywhere between jamming the bullets into the lands and .150 jump off the lands.

Note: When discussing jam and jump I am referring to the distance from the area of the bearing surface that engages the rifling and the rifling itself. There are many products that allow you to measure these critical dimensions. Some are better than others. I won’t be going into the methods of measuring jam and jump. If you are not familiar with this aspect of reloading it is critically important that you understand this concept before you attempt this test.

Many reloaders feel (and I tend to agree) that meaningful COAL adjustments are .002 to .005. Every once in a while I might adjust the COAL by .010 but this seems like I am moving the bullet the length of a football field. The only way a shooter will be able to benefit from this situation is to let go of this opinion that more than .010 change is too much (me included).

Trying to find the COAL that puts you in the sweet spot by moving .002 to .010 will take so long the barrel may be worn out by the time you sort it out if you don’t give up first. Since the sweet spot is .030 to .040 wide we recommend that you conduct the following test to find your rifles VLD sweet spot.

Load 24 rounds at the following COAL if you are a target competition shooter who does not worry about jamming a bullet:
1. .010 into (touching) the lands (jam) 6 rounds
2. .040 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds
3. .080 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds
4. .120 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds

Load 24 rounds at the following COAL if you are a hunter (pulling a bullet out of the case with your rifling while in the field can be a hunt ending event which must be avoided) or a competition shooter who worries about pulling a bullet during a match:
1. .010 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds
2. .050 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds
3. .090 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds
4. .130 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds

Shoot 2 (separate) 3 shot groups in fair conditions to see how they group. The remarkable reality of this test is that one of these 4 COALs will outperform the other three by a considerable margin. Once you know which one of these 4 COAL shoots best then you can tweak the COAL +/- .002 or .005. Taking the time to set this test up will pay off when you find that your rifle is capable of shooting the VLD bullets very well (even at 100 yards).

Regards,
Eric Stecker
Master Bulletsmith

[HuntTXhogs]

That is the article I was referring to in the initial posting, as I said my .308 semi didn't like the Bergers at all. Thanks for digging that up.

Which VLD magazine are you using, the older ones made by LRP or the newer made by DPMS? Link for in stock purchases?

I have the older BHW 1:10 twist 18 inch barrel on the way from a gun I am buying for a private seller. It is supposedly the match grade 3 poly barrel. Not sure how I can tell without having to mess with the handguard....

What kind of groupings were you getting with the old stock BHW and all those bergers? Any known velocity as well would be nice to know. Load data too

Thanks for the responses, hope to know more soon.

BB

[Deleted]

I think the 1:9 will make more sense if you want to try the 87 and 95vlds. but the 1:10 should be good for many good bullets...

Here in the middle is the hornady 105gr. Moves at 2450fps out of a 20" 1:8 barrel just below max. I think the 1:8 is too much and the 1:9 is perfect for what I want. I cannot wait to get the new BHW 24" barrel to go a step further with the slowest powders.

The VLD needs a modified bolt stop or just remove it. The VLD magazines do make a huge difference in order to maximize the performance of the round and avoid single feeding in the AR...





AI long range courtesy of SScoyote..

[GLSHOOTER]

Great post Ritch. Thanks for that reference.

Greg

[Deleted]

I do setup the bullets between .001 and .01 form COAL and many times settled kind of in the middle.

Like the parent, I found the 6x45 an extremely forgiving cartridge when it comes to reloading. I believe one could piss inside the case and still get submoa groups.

That's why it won many BR competitions back in the 60s early 70's before the BR came along.