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Post by mattyno on Jan 22, 2013 7:32:12 GMT -8
A friend and I have been having this debate for a while. What do you think Mass vs Quick follow up shot? I realize their may be a difference when talking target vs defense but either way I'm curious.
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Post by GLSHOOTER on Jan 22, 2013 15:29:53 GMT -8
A friend and I have been having this debate for a while. What do you think Mass vs Quick follow up shot? I realize their may be a difference when talking target vs defense but either way I'm curious. In my limited experience I have found that a 300 grain slug on a prairie dog RARELY requires a follow up shot. Greg PS:My name is Jack, are you Elmer? PPS: In target shooting it makes no sense in overdoing energy down range. If it is paper you are shooting then light is right and if it is game time like # Gun then the quicker the better. If it is defense then the heaviest thing you can shoot WELL and quickly is the way to go. For many it is a 223 for many it is a 308 and for others a 22 rim fire. Abilities to make shots in a defensive situation are very important as the most accurate firearm in the world does nothing if the driver can't steer. |
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Post by skinnyb82 on Feb 6, 2013 11:41:45 GMT -8
Keep in mind I'm talking self defense, not plinking, not handgun hunting. Bonded HPs. I've seen ballistics data for .40S&W loads (Speer, Federal HSTs, etc) and ironically the lighter the load, the more effective it is (to a point). Because it takes less time for a 155 gr. to expand than it does for a 180 gr. load. I carry a Springfield XDS chambered in .45 ACP or a Sig P229 in .40S&W (HSTs in both) depending on the weather and either of those rounds will take care of business if needed (and I hope I never need to).
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Post by GLSHOOTER on Feb 6, 2013 11:51:50 GMT -8
Keep in mind I'm talking self defense, not plinking, not handgun hunting. Bonded HPs. I've seen ballistics data for .40S&W loads (Speer, Federal HSTs, etc) and ironically the lighter the load, the more effective it is (to a point). Because it takes less time for a 155 gr. to expand than it does for a 180 gr. load. I carry a Springfield XDS chambered in .45 ACP or a Sig P229 in .40S&W (HSTs in both) depending on the weather and either of those rounds will take care of business if needed (and I hope I never need to). I've always felt a 185 in the 45 ACP was a good choice. Those bath tub caverns seem to open up PDQ. As to the 40's most go with the 155's from what I have seen vs the 180's that are kind of chunky. Greg PS: Sorry I missed this being in the handgun thread but then we had old Elmer vs Lee on that one!! LOL |
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Post by skinnyb82 on Feb 8, 2013 10:35:22 GMT -8
Everyone says "Federal HST .45 ACP +P 230 gr." Holy crap yeah if you wanna blow a massive hole in someone because at 5 feet, yikes. There's an LGS here who sells HSTs (thank God so I don't have to order them off the internet). When I'm not in the People's Republic of Illinois, I carry a P229 .40S&W with 155 gr. HSTs since 180 gr. is just too heavy duty. In the summer I carry my Springfield XDS hand cannon with .45 ACP 230 gr. (not +P) HSTs. California's not gonna have to worry about HP bullets soon since they'll all be banned, along with "similar assault bullets" (aren't all bullets "assault bullets"?).
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Post by eisenochs on Feb 13, 2013 2:27:35 GMT -8
Somebody would have to be pretty hopped-up on something to take more than a couple of 135grain 9mm+P Hornady "Critical Duty" rounds. Good stuff, hits like a hammer, and I can cram 18 of them in my CZ-75 SP-01. Hopefully, I won't need that many, but it's good to know they're there! ;D
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Post by skinnyb82 on Mar 24, 2013 12:24:18 GMT -8
I don't trust a 9mm, even with +P bonded JHPs. I won't carry anything lower than a .40 S&W with 155 gr. Federal HSTs or a smaller load if it's summer (less clothing to penetrate, faster expansion too). Hornady is coming out with Critical Defense (or Duty, I don't remember) .45 ACP 220 gr. +P which has piqued my interest as my XDS is my EDC for the summer (fits in the palm of my hand). It just depends on the weather, I'd never carry reloads either as that's asking for it if you do end up having to exercise lethal force (even if you don't kill the guy). Best idea is to carry whatever the local LEOs carry, that way the local DA/SA can't use some convoluted argument about your ammo being "excessive" or some crap. If it's good enough for the local PD, then it's good enough for citizens...they might argue that my Winchester PDX1 12 Defender shells loaded with a slug surrounded by buckshot is a little "too much" but I don't really care. That being said, if it works for you, then hey who am I to argue  |
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2013 18:58:46 GMT -8
Some people like this for defense...  And some people like this...  If the person with the 44magnum can draw quickly and make a couple of shots maybe one with center-mass the recipient is history. But follow up is not fast and most people cannot handle the recoil. So in most cases the shooter would be more comfortable with the FN round below and a well trained person can put several rounds center-mass and a couple in the head in the time it takes the 44 magnum to recover from the shots. These are the two extremes and everything you can imagine in the middle but bottom line one needs to shoot with what one feels good, confident and one is accurate with, even if it is a 22LR that can be a great defensive round for a small woman. The recovery on a target practice is the most important part because if we train with targets for defense, hunting or whatever useful purpose (not plinking) that is where you want to make every shot easy. In self defense type of target all the motions and mind set must become 2nd nature through conditioning so you don't even think about the recoil, aiming or anything else, you just do it as pre-programmed a robot. This is only possible through constant conditioning and the process of aiming and even thinking goes to the backend. Like one old wise samurai once said... We fight at the Dojo and then we play at the battlefield. |
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Post by chinaheart on May 16, 2013 0:04:39 GMT -8
Mass vs Quick follow up shot? Why not choose both? ;D
The question poses that there is no room for compromise between the two. I'm not entirely convinced that's the case. That said, in an ideal world, quick follow up shot would be irrelevant if you hit your target the first time.
Whereas more mass would be ideal for more penetration, there is a limit to that benefit so bullet mass is not the summum bonum some make it out to be. As such I pick whichever round I can place more accurately, in any given caliber.
For what its worth, these are my preferences in no particular order....
9mm, 124/125gr +p (prefer gold dots)
357Sig 125gr (Gold dots again)
45ACP 185gr (I've switched to Hornady XTP thanks to their rubber tip)
I prefer the 45 best, but I carry the other 2 more often simply for the size convenience.
Don't do .40. I cannot for the life of me see what the appeal of this round is. Beats up the gun, beats up my hand and I can't group worth a squat with this round, as such I will not willingly carry one for self defense. Different strokes for different folks I suppose.
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djmfl
Senior Member
Posts: 118
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Post by djmfl on May 16, 2013 14:41:13 GMT -8
Hunting or defense, the first round down the tube is the most important. Shot placement is the absolute must. Shoot the heaviest bullet you can shoot ACCURATELY. Like realtor's say when buying a house.... location, location, location! Same is true in shooting.
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Post by eisenochs on May 17, 2013 5:19:47 GMT -8
Everyone seems to be forgetting to take energy into account as well. A 115gr 9mm bullet traveling at 1140 fps carries 332 lb-ft of energy. A 230gr .45ACP bullet traveling at 850 fps carries 369 lb-ft. Or, if you like a little more velocity, you can send a 185gr .45 through the tube at 1000 fps, delivering 411 lb-ft of energy. All figures are provided by Hornady at standard (not +P or NATO-spec) loading pressures.
This is the part where someone brings up the size of the wound channel. In response to that, I'm going to operate under the assumption that we are discussing expanding hollow point bullets, for the purposes of self-defense. If we were using FMJ ammo with limited or no expansion, the argument in favor of the .45's wider wound channel would be valid. But the difference in bore decreases after the bullet expands, largely because velocity is a major factor in how much the round deforms and expands on impact.
In summary, I like my 9mm hollow-points because:
1) Smooth recoil and easily-controlled
2) No problem in generating ample velocity
3) Consistent, reliable expansion with a 3" or longer pipe
4) My CZ-75 SP01 packs a whopping 18 rounds per standard magazine-- nearly double that of virtually any .45
Hence, my CZ, loaded with 135gr 9mm+P Hornady Critical Duty, is what I keep in my night stand.
Having said all that, I really wish Winchester's 9x23 round took off in the marketplace-- I like the idea of more energy with standard 9mm bullets and no loss of magazine capacity (unlike .357 Sig), without .38 Super's semi-rim.
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Post by jedakiego on Jul 25, 2013 16:18:36 GMT -8
We have a SLEW class at the range, (Surviving Lethal Encounters Workshop) where they go over a BUNCH of information form actual cases where shootings happened. One thing to remember that I learned, High velocity up close is not a good thing in hunting or protection. They showed actual pictures of a person that took 6 shots from a 357 magnum to the face, left the place he attacked the person and drove himself to the hospital. The velocity up close caused the projectiles to explode on impact rather than penetrate. Even the jaw shot did not even break the jaw bone. They showed internal damage analysis on cadavers and substitutes and found the damage caused by 2 shots of 45acp 230gr fmj load. To equal the same internal damage took 4-6 rounds of 185gr 40 S&W FMJ and 7-9 rounds of 9mm 124gr fmj. Then they pointed out that in law enforcement is has been proven over and over that 75-80% of the rounds fired at a target in a high stress event miss there target. I would rather hit them 2 times with a large bullet than try to hit them several times with a smaller projectile. We are going to be doing some power/energy testing using a weighted backstop that we can put different media into to see how "hard" the bullet hits the media. This will enable us to measure the actual energy input into a target to compare different bullets.
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Post by GLSHOOTER on Jul 25, 2013 17:11:45 GMT -8
We have a SLEW class at the range, (Surviving Lethal Encounters Workshop) where they go over a BUNCH of information form actual cases where shootings happened. One thing to remember that I learned, High velocity up close is not a good thing in hunting or protection. They showed actual pictures of a person that took 6 shots from a 357 magnum to the face, left the place he attacked the person and drove himself to the hospital. The velocity up close caused the projectiles to explode on impact rather than penetrate. Even the jaw shot did not even break the jaw bone. They showed internal damage analysis on cadavers and substitutes and found the damage caused by 2 shots of 45acp 230gr fmj load. To equal the same internal damage took 4-6 rounds of 185gr 40 S&W FMJ and 7-9 rounds of 9mm 124gr fmj. Then they pointed out that in law enforcement is has been proven over and over that 75-80% of the rounds fired at a target in a high stress event miss there target. I would rather hit them 2 times with a large bullet than try to hit them several times with a smaller projectile. We are going to be doing some power/energy testing using a weighted backstop that we can put different media into to see how "hard" the bullet hits the media. This will enable us to measure the actual energy input into a target to compare different bullets. Real world shooting feedback always beats Keyboard Kowboys. I carried 357 JHP's in the Border Patrol and 9 MM HP's in the FBOP. In the world I carry 230 ball. I worry a bunch about penetrating cover more than missing. The old Power Pendulum was interesting but far from the real world. Greg |
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Post by jedakiego on Jul 25, 2013 18:17:44 GMT -8
The power pendulum in the original design was lacking. We are looking to see how to have it hold a media in the impact area and see what energy is actually dissipated into the media. We are looking at making it to hold approx 12 inches of media, weather that be ballistic jell, human tissue analog, or wet news print. This should also allow us to check the actual credibility of different medias.
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Post by pasttense on Jul 27, 2013 16:17:47 GMT -8
As far as data goes: data is involved in statistics. Being raised in an engineering house hold. there was an often quoted Russian mathematician who stated there are lies, Damn lies, and then statistics.
All data is corrupted by the intent for which it was gathered just like history books are written to support the author's view.
So now I will add my own free and therefore worth it's price advice
My father in law a WW II vet (Africa, Italy, Philippines) said while hearing such a debate that he had seen people shot by both 45acp and 9mm Luger, and would prefer not to be shot by either.
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