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Post by geepee3 on Mar 6, 2015 20:03:56 GMT -8
I have all new brass to form into American 30.
The brass I have is SSA, Federal pulled and some Remington.
When running them through the Hornady 30 Herrett dies they come up short on headspace.
The SSA averages at 1.349" and the Federal and Remington are at 1.344" (softer brass) using the Hornady headspace guage.
As I mentioned in another thread, I am getting stamping into the ejector hole and extractor slot because the case head is getting shoved back against the bolt.
So from what I have read about case forming, I need to have the bullet touching the lands to make sure the shoulder gets moved forward and not stretch the webbing.
Is this what you would recommend?
Being this is my first adventure into full bore wildcatting, any help would be appreciated.
Glenn
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Post by mosigdude on Mar 7, 2015 14:07:26 GMT -8
First, I don't have my barrel so I'll preface this by saying I have not yet formed A30 brass, I have, however, formed several other calibers over the years.
I have used 3 methods to fire form brass, each has worked well. The first method involves adjusting the FL size die of the desired case out slightly so that it does not fully form the case and the case will not chamber, I then adjust the die toward the shellholder in small increments just until the case will chamber, I then trim to maximum length for the intended forming. Finally, I load the case at a known-safe low pressure load to fully form out the brass. I then use the Hornady headspace gauge to set my die to it's final setting, to bump the shoulder back about .001" or occasionally as much as .004" for more finicky semi-autos.
Method 2 is exactly the same as method 1 except instead of loading a bullet I use a bullet-less fire form method that uses fast-burning pistol powder and cream of wheat as a filler. I won't go into all the exacts because they change from caliber to caliber and even a little with different brands of brass, but a quick google search will give you a rundown on the method if you aren't already familiar. This is my preferred method as it doesnt put any extra wear on the shooting platform. On AR platforms, I do this with the gas block removed (just remember this is now a port in the top of the barrel and gas/high velocity cream of wheat will be blowing through this hole, take appropriate precautions) and pull a bore snake through the bore every 25 cases or so to keep any significant buildup to a minimum.
The 3rd method is pretty much as you described, bullet into the lands to hold case rearward, I also use a reduced load in this method.
Different methods may work better than others for different calibers, in A30 it looks like we're mostly just filling out the shoulder so I plan to attempt method 2 first followed by method 1 if 2 doesn't give the results I'm looking for, but I think it likely will.
Keep us posted on your progress.
Maybe some of the prostaff will chime in with their best experience as well.
Cheers,
Tim
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Post by geepee3 on Mar 7, 2015 14:24:37 GMT -8
Thank you Sir.
Now that I have the A-30 die gauge modified to fit the RCBS shell holder and seeing the vast difference in headspace is why I asked.
With the die set with the gauge and using some of the once fired brass that have no stamping. It is sizing at 1.355".
I have seen hydraulic case forming, which I would like to try. But this caliber is so new, there are no body dies for it.
Thank you for the information.
Glenn
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Post by mosigdude on Mar 7, 2015 15:46:03 GMT -8
I could be wrong but I think the gauge is intended to get us in the near ballpark, you may know more than I on that since I don't have mine yet, but my guess to the process with the gauge would be:
Set the die with the gauge and form a few cases, trim to max length (I was advised they would shrink a little when the shoulder is later formed out), make sure they chamber, if so, load with a safe-pressure starting load.
Fire a few rounds and take the measurement on the fired cases... If I remember right without going back to the other thread yours were something around 1.359"
Now back the sizing die out a quarter turn and resize your fired case. Take a measurement on the now-resized case and adjust the die back in as you resize your fired case, in small increments, as necessary until your once-fired case reads 1.356" (or .003" less than whatever your fired case measured). Make sure this case will chamber, if not, adjust the die until your case reads 1.355" (or .004" less than your fired-case measurement), check for chamber again. According to experience, some semi-autos may require up to .004" clearance. Whenever you find the setting that works, lock your die in place.
Once the die is locked it should be about perfect for resizing cases that have been already fired. Cases that are first formed will still require fire-forming to completely fill out the shoulder (from what I gather so far anyway) and allow for maximum case-capacity, but you should still be good to form them with the new setting.
This method should take up any slack between bolt face depth differences or minor chamber differences from reaming. Obviously if you have multiple rifles in the same caliber, it would be worth cross-checking the die settings between the two.
One other thing I have learned on a few of my more precision rigs, it is worth having a dedicated shellholder to the caliber or, at a minimum, making sure that you don't accidentially swap them if you have multiple calibers that use the same holder. I have noticed that they can and do vary in thickness, easiest for me is to buy a new shellholder when I buy the dies and just keep them together all the time.
Let us know how it goes!
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Post by madcat on Mar 7, 2015 15:56:25 GMT -8
I thought the only fire forming going on was the shoulder squaring up.
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Post by GLSHOOTER on Mar 7, 2015 16:03:43 GMT -8
Don't even consider running an AR at 0.002 less than fired size. No smaller than 0.003 or better yet 0.004 for reliablity. This brass lasts darn near forever at decent pressure. If you hot rod it you will pay the price.
You should never have to touch a shell holder on this case. It is already way above the holder by approx. 0.100. If you have to turn the base down on the gauge that is a different aspect but most us don't spend $35.00 looking for a shell holder. If it's too tall, for other cartidges, we just put it on a belt sander or grinder and thin down the top. Five minutes in the garage with the holder, a set of calipers and you are good to go. I've done this on mulitple holders.
The setup tool is just that. To get you set up to make brass that is sized enough to use then you adjust to firt your chamber.
Hydraulic dies are available if you have one made. Price is around $200 or so but why bother. I could wear a barrel out while you're waiting on your die and then you would still get to adjust the sizer after firing.
Greg
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2015 16:09:40 GMT -8
I thought the only fire forming going on was the shoulder squaring up. You are exactly right. If you or some one else is fire forming you are wasting bullets. The only reason I can see to fire form is if your brass is under sized. Making brass before you have the barrel is a bad idea. I make brass by getting a piece to fit and then firing and get me some measurements from the fired case. The gauge that is supplied with the barrel is to get you a few cases to fire and then take some measurement nothing more. |
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Post by mosigdude on Mar 7, 2015 17:26:23 GMT -8
I thought the only fire forming going on was the shoulder squaring up. Me also, I gathered from the question that he was just trying to make sure the shoulder was in the right place and that he had the size die adjusted properly. |
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Post by geepee3 on Mar 7, 2015 17:27:50 GMT -8
Please Gentlemen.
My question is with new brass at this time.
With the load data I was given. I get ejector and extractor stamping.
It does not do it with low-middle end 7.62x39 load data.
I am trying to make sure I do not stretch the case webbing.
The issue I had with second firing of cases is on me. I should have asked how the sent gauge was suppose sit in the shell holder. The diameter was to large for RCBS shell holders but I took care of that.
I was trying to find headspace by reducing once fired brass by hand inserting the bolt without the the bolt carrier and got a false reading.
The issue of new brass is my concern.
Should I just shoot reduced loads with new brass.
Thank you
Glenn
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Post by madcat on Mar 7, 2015 17:28:21 GMT -8
It would really be nice to have a case guage. I like the easy route.
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Post by geepee3 on Mar 7, 2015 17:34:23 GMT -8
I should mention I have used two different bolts, one Daniel defense and an SAA.
Both leave stamping marks.
Glenn
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Post by mosigdude on Mar 7, 2015 17:34:57 GMT -8
Don't even consider running an AR at 0.002 less than fired size. No smaller than 0.003 or better yet 0.004 for reliablity. This brass lasts darn near forever at decent pressure. If you hot rod it you will pay the price. You should never have to touch a shell holder on this case. It is already way above the holder by approx. 0.100. If you have to turn the base down on the gauge that is a different aspect but most us don't spend $35.00 looking for a shell holder. If it's too tall, for other cartidges, we just put it on a belt sander or grinder and thin down the top. Five minutes in the garage with the holder, a set of calipers and you are good to go. I've done this on mulitple holders. The setup tool is just that. To get you set up to make brass that is sized enough to use then you adjust to firt your chamber. Hydraulic dies are available if you have one made. Price is around $200 or so but why bother. I could wear a barrel out while you're waiting on your die and then you would still get to adjust the sizer after firing. Greg And there ya have it, the voice of experience! My experience in precision AR is limited, I do run my BHW 6x45 with .001" clearance and have not had issue but maybe this is the exception not the norm, I don't think I'm on the second firing of any cases yet so maybe I will require adjustment then. All otehr chamberings I have in the AR platforms I simply use factory dies adjusted down to the shellholder so those clearances are whatever they worked out to be. Several bolt guns I run at .001 also but that is a whole different animal I suppose. I'm going to go back and edit my previous reply to match your numbers to avoid confusion if someone in the future doesn't read this far into the thread. Thank you as always! Tim |
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Post by mosigdude on Mar 7, 2015 17:49:33 GMT -8
I should mention I have used two different bolts, one Daniel defense and an SAA. Both leave stamping marks. Glenn I would definitely pick one or the other to use in this build, I remember from the other thread that the bolt face is slightly deeper on one than the other, that will mess you up on your die setting if they are different and if you swap the bolts once you have the die set for the other. |
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Post by GLSHOOTER on Mar 7, 2015 19:00:09 GMT -8
Don't even consider running an AR at 0.002 less than fired size. No smaller than 0.003 or better yet 0.004 for reliablity. This brass lasts darn near forever at decent pressure. If you hot rod it you will pay the price. You should never have to touch a shell holder on this case. It is already way above the holder by approx. 0.100. If you have to turn the base down on the gauge that is a different aspect but most us don't spend $35.00 looking for a shell holder. If it's too tall, for other cartidges, we just put it on a belt sander or grinder and thin down the top. Five minutes in the garage with the holder, a set of calipers and you are good to go. I've done this on mulitple holders. The setup tool is just that. To get you set up to make brass that is sized enough to use then you adjust to firt your chamber. Hydraulic dies are available if you have one made. Price is around $200 or so but why bother. I could wear a barrel out while you're waiting on your die and then you would still get to adjust the sizer after firing. Greg And there ya have it, the voice of experience! My experience in precision AR is limited, I do run my BHW 6x45 with .001" clearance and have not had issue but maybe this is the exception not the norm, I don't think I'm on the second firing of any cases yet so maybe I will require adjustment then. All otehr chamberings I have in the AR platforms I simply use factory dies adjusted down to the shellholder so those clearances are whatever they worked out to be. Several bolt guns I run at .001 also but that is a whole different animal I suppose. I'm going to go back and edit my previous reply to match your numbers to avoid confusion if someone in the future doesn't read this far into the thread. Thank you as always! Tim Nothing wrong with your results but like you said only once fired. If you use multiple fired brass the cases will spring back and not size down enough. I run very lightly sized cases in my F-Class AR's. They are single loaded and very tight. Extraction can be problematic but not impossible. If you look at the groups posted here by various shooters you'll see some down in the 1's and 2's. All were shot with at least 0.003 clearance. Accuracy just isn't suffering much. In 3Gun I always run 0.004 just for an extra edge. Eight inch plates are pretty easy and I know it'll run every shot. Even in bolt guns I have started FL sizing. Maybe 0.001 - 0.002 but that's for matches. If I'm going for the gusto on a sniper match or PD's I always want some space over the F-Class loads. Greg |
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Post by cpct on Mar 9, 2015 5:34:49 GMT -8
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but the way I read this is: 1. Use the supplied gauge to initially set your die. 2. Size a few cases and trim to minimum. 3 Use a length gauge or split case method to get your land measurement. 4. Use a mild load and fire the sized cases. 5. Use the fired cases to make your final die adjustment. 6. Size the rest of your brass and get your load development started.
I'm not new to reloading, but this one is getting a little complicated. My 6x45 development was easy compared to what I'm reading here.
Did I miss something in my steps?
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