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Post by propeine on Jul 25, 2016 12:56:19 GMT -8
Hello everyone!
I landed here after a few years of kicking around the idea of a 6mm AR variant but being less than impressed with the 6x45 yet wanting to stay in a small framed AR. I would like to fire the 95gr or 105gr bullets. There are some caveats to my endeavor though.
I am not allowed to hunt with a semi-auto in Pennsylvania. Nor can I just "turn off the gas." It is possible that a forward facing gas block under a handguard would pass the game commission's review. However, I like the AR platform quite a bit and wouldn't mind building myself a straight pull side charger.
I also have a bare savage action that could use a barrel, a 223 bolt as well as a .473 bolt.
Finally, I have a lathe and know how to use it.
So my questions are, if you were reaming for a straight pull AND a bolt gun, would you use the same reamer or would some other reamer be more appropriate?
Would straight pull loads be on par velocity wise with the bolt gun loads since I wouldn't be bleeding any gas?
Does anyone rent the 243 LBC reamer or would I be buying one from PTG (or preferably Manson whom I've had prior positive experiences with)? I've rented from 4-D in the past but they don't have any of the 6mm AR variants I would be interested in.
Any help is appreciated! Thank you.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2016 17:35:03 GMT -8
Hello everyone! I landed here after a few years of kicking around the idea of a 6mm AR variant but being less than impressed with the 6x45 yet wanting to stay in a small framed AR. I would like to fire the 95gr or 105gr bullets. There are some caveats to my endeavor though. I am not allowed to hunt with a semi-auto in Pennsylvania. Nor can I just "turn off the gas." It is possible that a forward facing gas block under a handguard would pass the game commission's review. However, I like the AR platform quite a bit and wouldn't mind building myself a straight pull side charger. I also have a bare savage action that could use a barrel, a 223 bolt as well as a .473 bolt. Finally, I have a lathe and know how to use it. So my questions are, if you were reaming for a straight pull AND a bolt gun, would you use the same reamer or would some other reamer be more appropriate? Would straight pull loads be on par velocity wise with the bolt gun loads since I wouldn't be bleeding any gas? Does anyone rent the 243 LBC reamer or would I be buying one from PTG (or preferably Manson whom I've had prior positive experiences with)? I've rented from 4-D in the past but they don't have any of the 6mm AR variants I would be interested in. Any help is appreciated! Thank you. Welcome to the forum. I will try and answer your questions in the order you asked Yes you would use the same reamer. I have bolt gun barrels as well as AR barrels, all done with the same reamer. Yes velocities would be close to the same if both barrels are the same length. No there are no rentals out there to my knowledge. The 243 LBC is a reamer I designed for Black Hole. It was called the 243 LBC because when I did it we couldn't use the name "Grendel". There have been at least 3 design refinements since it's inception. I'm also pretty sure you won't get a copy of the reamer that Black Hole is using. I don't have Manson do any of my reamers and doubt I ever will. But that's another story. I would just order some barrels from Black Hole. They will do your AR barrel with or without a gas port. Your Savage barrel is a snap, but you will need a .442 or PPC bolt head. Doing it this way you will get the reamer that has been upgraded and tested. You won't have to pay tooling costs for the reamers and head space gauges, as well as the 6 week wait for the tooling. |
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Post by propeine on Jul 25, 2016 19:11:05 GMT -8
Just the man I was hoping to hear from although not with the answers I was hoping to hear. Thank you.
I'm kind of funny about making things myself normally including barrels and suppressors but in some instances it just isn't practical. The PPC bolt head for the savage I suppose I could handle at least using the spare 223 bolt head I have.
Even with reamer changes the reloading method is still running the cases into a 6mm PPC die correct?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2016 2:41:46 GMT -8
Just the man I was hoping to hear from although not with the answers I was hoping to hear. Thank you. I'm kind of funny about making things myself normally including barrels and suppressors but in some instances it just isn't practical. The PPC bolt head for the savage I suppose I could handle at least using the spare 223 bolt head I have. Even with reamer changes the reloading method is still running the cases into a 6mm PPC die correct? You could open your 223 bolt, but you will find it to be a pain to make work properly. The ejector rod will be to close to center as well as the extractor will sit to far to the inside of the bolt face. We use a full length Redding "S" 6.5 Grendel die . It is longer than the PPC and will size all the way down the case. The PPC we used in the beginning left about .070 of unsized case at the base of the brass. |
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Post by propeine on Jul 26, 2016 6:38:00 GMT -8
There aren't many options for PPC sized savage bolts. PTG if I can figure out which one I need or Sharp Shooter Supply offers an extended extractor that works with a standard 308 bolt. The extended extractor doesn't seem like the best solution for accuracy but may work fine.
I will be using a long action with an extended bolt baffle which of course makes things even more interesting. The cartridge is impressive enough on ~30gr of powder that it is worth the hassle but this may cost more than I initially thought.
Has anyone been running it suppressed? I would think it should work well especially through a 308 can considering the relatively minimal charge weight.
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Post by GLSHOOTER on Jul 26, 2016 16:04:36 GMT -8
There aren't many options for PPC sized savage bolts. PTG if I can figure out which one I need or Sharp Shooter Supply offers an extended extractor that works with a standard 308 bolt. The extended extractor doesn't seem like the best solution for accuracy but may work fine. I will be using a long action with an extended bolt baffle which of course makes things even more interesting. The cartridge is impressive enough on ~30gr of powder that it is worth the hassle but this may cost more than I initially thought. Has anyone been running it suppressed? I would think it should work well especially through a 308 can considering the relatively minimal charge weight. To my knowledge SSS no longer sells the extractors. You can use either LA or SA bolt. If you use the SA bolt you will have to adjust your firing pin quite a bit. I just put a 556 on an LA and did this. Doing the LA bolt head will save some monkeying but you might have to adjust the FP just a tad anyway. I buy SA bolts because I have both length actions. Many BR shooters use a 473 bolt head/.308 on their BR guns. AS long as the face is perpendicular to the bore like normal no issues in accuracy will occur and 90% of the time extraction is perfectly fine. As an aside we shoot 6.8 in PPC bolts the same way with no problems even in the AR. None of us here, AFAIK, have suppressed it though some guys on Predator Masters have. I'm sure it will do fine in that set up. Greg |
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Post by propeine on Jul 26, 2016 16:19:53 GMT -8
There aren't many options for PPC sized savage bolts. PTG if I can figure out which one I need or Sharp Shooter Supply offers an extended extractor that works with a standard 308 bolt. The extended extractor doesn't seem like the best solution for accuracy but may work fine. I will be using a long action with an extended bolt baffle which of course makes things even more interesting. The cartridge is impressive enough on ~30gr of powder that it is worth the hassle but this may cost more than I initially thought. Has anyone been running it suppressed? I would think it should work well especially through a 308 can considering the relatively minimal charge weight. To my knowledge SSS no longer sells the extractors. You can use either LA or SA bolt. If you use the SA bolt you will have to adjust your firing pin quite a bit. I just put a 556 on an LA and did this. Doing the LA bolt head will save some monkeying but you might have to adjust the FP just a tad anyway. I buy SA bolts because I have both length actions. Many BR shooters use a 473 bolt head/.308 on their BR guns. AS long as the face is perpendicular to the bore like normal no issues in accuracy will occur and 90% of the time extraction is perfectly fine. As an aside we shoot 6.8 in PPC bolts the same way with no problems even in the AR. None of us here, AFAIK, have suppressed it though some guys on Predator Masters have. I'm sure it will do fine in that set up. Greg Well I reckon that pretty much settles it. I have a 308 bolt face in it currently, SSS will still convert a bolt for 25 dollars and BHW is having a 20% sale. I'll try it with the 308 face/extractor first and see how it goes. I reckon I will start with the bolt gun and roll into the AR platform as I acquire more components. I have a spare upper and spare lowers but missing more parts to complete than the savage. You guys are bad for my bank account already. Thanks for the help! |
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Post by GLSHOOTER on Jul 26, 2016 17:10:10 GMT -8
Heck,we're bad for our own bank accounts.
Greg
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Post by gpsman007 on Jul 26, 2016 17:18:19 GMT -8
Heck,we're bad for our own bank accounts. Greg Workin for guns and ammo..... things could be worse |
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204ar
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Post by 204ar on Jul 26, 2016 19:25:08 GMT -8
There aren't many options for PPC sized savage bolts. PTG if I can figure out which one I need or Sharp Shooter Supply offers an extended extractor that works with a standard 308 bolt. The extended extractor doesn't seem like the best solution for accuracy but may work fine. I will be using a long action with an extended bolt baffle which of course makes things even more interesting. The cartridge is impressive enough on ~30gr of powder that it is worth the hassle but this may cost more than I initially thought. Has anyone been running it suppressed? I would think it should work well especially through a 308 can considering the relatively minimal charge weight. I run one suppressed with a Sico Harvester. I put off building one for the longest time and finally ordered the barrel from Ritch around Thanksgiving time last year and put it together right after the first of the year. It's quickly become my favorite AR, and I have/have had quite a few different calibers from 22lr up to 300 Saum. I went with a 22" standard contour barrel as this will be my hunting rifle for coyotes and antelope/deer, if I ever spring for another tag someday. What I like: Accurate with virtually every bullet I've tried. Also amazing is that it shoots them all to the same poi at 200 yards. Versatile, you can shoot 55's at 3500 from this barrel length easily, 85's at 3000, 95 smk should do 2850 or 2900 if I choose to buy some for long range targets. Mild mannered enough that I'm not worried about shooting the barrel out like I would be with a 243 Win. I've shot out 3 different 243 Win barrels. Like you said this round burns around 30 gr of powder at mild pressure. Reliable, once you learn a few tricks about putting things together. Ritch was instrumental in getting mine right with good advice and both he and Greg are a wealth of knowledge. Great brass is available. My Lapua is on 10 loadings iirc, geez that means I already have 1k rounds thru this rifle wow. Shouldn't be surprised because I shoot it nearly every day. I think it would be great in a bolt gun. I would like one that takes AR mags. |
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Post by propeine on Jul 27, 2016 5:47:01 GMT -8
There aren't many options for PPC sized savage bolts. PTG if I can figure out which one I need or Sharp Shooter Supply offers an extended extractor that works with a standard 308 bolt. The extended extractor doesn't seem like the best solution for accuracy but may work fine. I will be using a long action with an extended bolt baffle which of course makes things even more interesting. The cartridge is impressive enough on ~30gr of powder that it is worth the hassle but this may cost more than I initially thought. Has anyone been running it suppressed? I would think it should work well especially through a 308 can considering the relatively minimal charge weight. I run one suppressed with a Sico Harvester. I put off building one for the longest time and finally ordered the barrel from Ritch around Thanksgiving time last year and put it together right after the first of the year. It's quickly become my favorite AR, and I have/have had quite a few different calibers from 22lr up to 300 Saum. I went with a 22" standard contour barrel as this will be my hunting rifle for coyotes and antelope/deer, if I ever spring for another tag someday. What I like: Accurate with virtually every bullet I've tried. Also amazing is that it shoots them all to the same poi at 200 yards. Versatile, you can shoot 55's at 3500 from this barrel length easily, 85's at 3000, 95 smk should do 2850 or 2900 if I choose to buy some for long range targets. Mild mannered enough that I'm not worried about shooting the barrel out like I would be with a 243 Win. I've shot out 3 different 243 Win barrels. Like you said this round burns around 30 gr of powder at mild pressure. Reliable, once you learn a few tricks about putting things together. Ritch was instrumental in getting mine right with good advice and both he and Greg are a wealth of knowledge. Great brass is available. My Lapua is on 10 loadings iirc, geez that means I already have 1k rounds thru this rifle wow. Shouldn't be surprised because I shoot it nearly every day. I think it would be great in a bolt gun. I would like one that takes AR mags. Your likes are pretty much what steered me to this. A buddy of mine said "Can't just stick with the 6.5 Grendel?" For the exact reasons you stated about versatility my answer was no. I like to shoot groundhogs and like to shoot long range when I can. More velocity and better bullet selection means sticking to 6mm. As you said barrel life should be better than 243 and it should suppress better as well. I too would like one that takes AR mags. Maybe a Mossberg (:shudder:) or Ruger rebarrel would get you there since they both have bolt actions that take them I believe. I'll be using the CDI "conversion" bottom metal that lets you use AICS 308 mags in a long action. One more question for the pros before I click the checkout button, the muzzle options are 1/2-28 with no extra notes, and 5/8-24 "suppressor ready", I would prefer to ream out a 223 suppressor mount (my form 1 can uses Griffin taper mounts to attach) rather than have to use a 308 one. Is the same attention to detail paid as far as thread class and concentricity if I pick 1/2-28? Finally just because I'm adding a 9" suppressor to the end of it, has anyone done any really short barrels? How bad is the lost velocity. Kind of defeats the purpose but I was curious for the eventual AR Barrel. Thanks again guys |
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Post by GLSHOOTER on Jul 27, 2016 9:57:41 GMT -8
[/quote]Your likes are pretty much what steered me to this. A buddy of mine said "Can't just stick with the 6.5 Grendel?" For the exact reasons you stated about versatility my answer was no. I like to shoot groundhogs and like to shoot long range when I can. More velocity and better bullet selection means sticking to 6mm. As you said barrel life should be better than 243 and it should suppress better as well.
I too would like one that takes AR mags. Maybe a Mossberg (:shudder:) or Ruger rebarrel would get you there since they both have bolt actions that take them I believe. I'll be using the CDI "conversion" bottom metal that lets you use AICS 308 mags in a long action.
One more question for the pros before I click the checkout button, the muzzle options are 1/2-28 with no extra notes, and 5/8-24 "suppressor ready", I would prefer to ream out a 223 suppressor mount (my form 1 can uses Griffin taper mounts to attach) rather than have to use a 308 one. Is the same attention to detail paid as far as thread class and concentricity if I pick 1/2-28?
Finally just because I'm adding a 9" suppressor to the end of it, has anyone done any really short barrels? How bad is the lost velocity. Kind of defeats the purpose but I was curious for the eventual AR Barrel.
Thanks again guys[/quote]
Yes the attention to detail is the same on either threading job it would have to be as they do lots of 223 sized guns that use the smaller thread suppressors.
Short? Going less than 20" will rob you of some velocity. We've done/shot quite a few 16-18" 6x6.8's, close ballistic twin, on coyotes that are hammers. Pretty much your call but I like speed and can't fathom me ever going less than 18" on one of the variants.
Greg
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Post by propeine on Jul 27, 2016 10:58:39 GMT -8
Your likes are pretty much what steered me to this. A buddy of mine said "Can't just stick with the 6.5 Grendel?" For the exact reasons you stated about versatility my answer was no. I like to shoot groundhogs and like to shoot long range when I can. More velocity and better bullet selection means sticking to 6mm. As you said barrel life should be better than 243 and it should suppress better as well. I too would like one that takes AR mags. Maybe a Mossberg (:shudder:) or Ruger rebarrel would get you there since they both have bolt actions that take them I believe. I'll be using the CDI "conversion" bottom metal that lets you use AICS 308 mags in a long action. One more question for the pros before I click the checkout button, the muzzle options are 1/2-28 with no extra notes, and 5/8-24 "suppressor ready", I would prefer to ream out a 223 suppressor mount (my form 1 can uses Griffin taper mounts to attach) rather than have to use a 308 one. Is the same attention to detail paid as far as thread class and concentricity if I pick 1/2-28? Finally just because I'm adding a 9" suppressor to the end of it, has anyone done any really short barrels? How bad is the lost velocity. Kind of defeats the purpose but I was curious for the eventual AR Barrel. Thanks again guys[/quote] Yes the attention to detail is the same on either threading job it would have to be as they do lots of 223 sized guns that use the smaller thread suppressors. Short? Going less than 20" will rob you of some velocity. We've done/shot quite a few 16-18" 6x6.8's, close ballistic twin, on coyotes that are hammers. Pretty much your call but I like speed and can't fathom me ever going less than 18" on one of the variants. Greg[/quote] Perfect thanks Greg. Kind of what I figured about the threads but I wanted to check. I'm sticking with 22" for the bolt gun. I MAY go 18" for the AR but 20-22 is a more likely range even there. Not exactly going to be "truck gun" either way compared to the 10.5" 5.56 I run normally. Now the waiting begins for the savage barrel while I figure out if I can get around the semi-auto hunting laws with turning the gas block around. Order sent..1:8 twist 243 LBC 22" long Varmint Profile with 1/2-28 muzzle threads, no finish or flutes since I can cerakote and I'm too cheap to pay for flutes. Now to source everything else that goes with it. |
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Post by GLSHOOTER on Jul 27, 2016 16:06:34 GMT -8
This is my 26" 243 LBC that is winning me the Gold on occasion.  Greg |
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Post by propeine on Jul 27, 2016 20:55:20 GMT -8
This is my 26" 243 LBC that is winning me the Gold on occasion. Greg Nice stick. Good to see some wood stocks especially with some character. What optic are you running on it? |
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