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Post by stephen243 on Jun 3, 2020 20:42:52 GMT -8
You can't argue with that. Bushings it is.
Thank you again for all of your help.
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Post by masterknot on Jun 4, 2023 11:01:31 GMT -8
Hello,
New here, and maybe very late to the topic, and to reloading... searching for a cartridge - .243 LBC, or 6mmAR - info on differences between the two, and on case production.
I've referenced this forum, from the outside, at times over several years... during this endless search, and still have not made a decision. I'm not confident enough with the little info I've gathered from the interwebs so far. I'm willing to have custom dies made for ether cartridge listed above. I just can't find enough data to help me select one. I wish to eliminate as many steps as possible in case sizing... don't want to make mistakes, and waste too much time producing ammo. I'm nowhere near the level of, hand loading for high precision, I just want to get started on producing for a good gun. Concept: BHW barrel preferred - 20"-24" straight taper profile no gas port (1:8?), for a bolt action 15 Platform, possibly even bobsled feed. *Super Short Action Only
* Meaning, please don't tell me to get a different gun.
Other cartridges I've pondered: Earlier times - 6.5x6.8, 6mmx6.8 (scrapped those) Lately - 6mmAR Turbo Forty, 6mm Grinch - I believe I'd like to have the extra case capacity, but I think I've decided, far too difficult to produce. If I could find specs for the production of dies, and a chamber, then I might say, go.
I want the wildcat without the wildcatting.
Any ideas for a beginner with simplistic aspirations... am I crazy?
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Post by GLSHOOTER on Jun 4, 2023 12:25:23 GMT -8
Hello, New here, and maybe very late to the topic, and to reloading... searching for a cartridge - .243 LBC, or 6mmAR - info on differences between the two, and on case production. I've referenced this forum, from the outside, at times over several years... during this endless search, and still have not made a decision. I'm not confident enough with the little info I've gathered from the interwebs so far. I'm willing to have custom dies made for ether cartridge listed above. I just can't find enough data to help me select one. I wish to eliminate as many steps as possible in case sizing... don't want to make mistakes, and waste too much time producing ammo. I'm nowhere near the level of, hand loading for high precision, I just want to get started on producing for a good gun. Concept: BHW barrel preferred - 20"-24" straight taper profile no gas port, for a bolt action 15 Platform, possibly even bobsled feed. *Super Short Action Only * Meaning, please don't tell me to get a different gun. Other cartridges I've pondered: Earlier times - 6.5x6.8, 6mmx6.8 (scrapped those) Lately - 6mmAR Turbo Forty, 6mm Grinch - I believe I'd like to have the extra case capacity, but I think I've decided, far too difficult to produce. If I could find specs for the production of dies, and a chamber, then I might say, go. Any ideas for beginner with simplistic aspirations? Glad to have new blood hitting the range with some of the newer stuff. Lots to play with and learn with!! The two cartridges share the parent case of the 6.5 Grendel that of course goes back to the 220 Russian through a couple of iterations. The ARC holds 33-34 grains of H2O per what I can find as it is one I do not own. The shoulder has been moved back from the Grendel and the case shortened 0.030 from the original. The 243 uses the same shoulder height and the full 1.520 case length of the Grendel. Because of case deign the actual case capacities I have measured on my 243 LBC's are 37.8 to 38 grains of H2O. Basically a net gain of about 11-12%. All figures will vary based on case lots and actual chamber sizes. The speed variance will be 100 to 150 FPS between the two with same same barrel. The gas gun loads are normally at 52,000 PSI but the bolt gun can flirt with 60,000 PSI without effort. Brass choice is without a doubt Lapua for taking the bigger pressures of the bolt gun for longevity. To my knowledge they have not made ARC brass yet. The LBC brass is made using a 6.5 Grendel Redding Type S bushing FL sizer or if you contact CH4D they may have one of the standard style dies made to BHW specs that I sent them in stock. I prefer to neck down the brass with two bushings of appropriate size though it can be done in one step. Or I will use the CH4D set up that will produce brass in one stroke. Obviously you will be spending an extra 30 minute to make the first hundred using the bushings. After firing you just go back to using a single bushing in the sizer. A couple of hundred cases will last a long time. For seating purposes we us a generic Hornady 6 MM seater die that has the floating chamber. Adding a micrometer top is a nice upgrade. I shoot my LBC in 500 yard F-Class matches. In both bolt and AR. I have also shot the 6X6.8 with good results. I have shot the 95 SMK's or Nosler versions since the beginning. At the time the 95's extra speed made up for the BC of bigger bullets. With the new production stuff out there going to a 103-108 might be advantageous. Sled usage lets you go long and get you closer to the lands so the bigger boys can be used more easily. For magazine fed stuff I use ASC Grendel magazines that let me load to 2.314-2.316. Rumor has it that basically the ARC was a derivative of the LBC concept and the factory wanted something that was new and unique that didn't require a lot of thought. The big boys are looking for an edge and the ARC gave them that unique approach. Of course you can make ARC out of Grendel cases just using your die and a trimmer. My barrels are 9 or 10 twist. I see no reason to go faster as with the polygon rifling it's like a one step faster rate anyway. I also feel like the use of the heavies is not rally needed but some guys like them. Factory ARC's ar twisted pretty tight at 7 twist from what I see. Just a quick overview for you. BTW IMR 8208 is THE powder for the LBC. Greg |
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Post by masterknot on Jun 5, 2023 6:49:20 GMT -8
Hello, New here, and maybe very late to the topic, and to reloading... searching for a cartridge - .243 LBC, or 6mmAR - info on differences between the two, and on case production. I've referenced this forum, from the outside, at times over several years... during this endless search, and still have not made a decision. I'm not confident enough with the little info I've gathered from the interwebs so far. I'm willing to have custom dies made for ether cartridge listed above. I just can't find enough data to help me select one. I wish to eliminate as many steps as possible in case sizing... don't want to make mistakes, and waste too much time producing ammo. I'm nowhere near the level of, hand loading for high precision, I just want to get started on producing for a good gun. Concept: BHW barrel preferred - 20"-24" straight taper profile no gas port, for a bolt action 15 Platform, possibly even bobsled feed. *Super Short Action Only * Meaning, please don't tell me to get a different gun. Other cartridges I've pondered: Earlier times - 6.5x6.8, 6mmx6.8 (scrapped those) Lately - 6mmAR Turbo Forty, 6mm Grinch - I believe I'd like to have the extra case capacity, but I think I've decided, far too difficult to produce. If I could find specs for the production of dies, and a chamber, then I might say, go. Any ideas for beginner with simplistic aspirations? Glad to have new blood hitting the range with some of the newer stuff. Lots to play with and learn with!! The two cartridges share the parent case of the 6.5 Grendel that of course goes back to the 220 Russian through a couple of iterations. The ARC holds 33-34 grains of H2O per what I can find as it is one I do not own. The shoulder has been moved back from the Grendel and the case shortened 0.030 from the original. The 243 uses the same shoulder height and the full 1.520 case length of the Grendel. Because of case deign the actual case capacities I have measured on my 243 LBC's are 37.8 to 38 grains of H2O. Basically a net gain of about 11-12%. All figures will vary based on case lots and actual chamber sizes. The speed variance will be 100 to 150 FPS between the two with same same barrel. The gas gun loads are normally at 52,000 PSI but the bolt gun can flirt with 60,000 PSI without effort. Brass choice is without a doubt Lapua for taking the bigger pressures of the bolt gun for longevity. To my knowledge they have not made ARC brass yet. The LBC brass is made using a 6.5 Grendel Redding Type S bushing FL sizer or if you contact CH4D they may have one of the standard style dies made to BHW specs that I sent them in stock. I prefer to neck down the brass with two bushings of appropriate size though it can be done in one step. Or I will use the CH4D set up that will produce brass in one stroke. Obviously you will be spending an extra 30 minute to make the first hundred using the bushings. After firing you just go back to using a single bushing in the sizer. A couple of hundred cases will last a long time. For seating purposes we us a generic Hornady 6 MM seater die that has the floating chamber. Adding a micrometer top is a nice upgrade. I shoot my LBC in 500 yard F-Class matches. In both bolt and AR. I have also shot the 6X6.8 with good results. I have shot the 95 SMK's or Nosler versions since the beginning. At the time the 95's extra speed made up for the BC of bigger bullets. With the new production stuff out there going to a 103-108 might be advantageous. Sled usage lets you go long and get you closer to the lands so the bigger boys can be used more easily. For magazine fed stuff I use ASC Grendel magazines that let me load to 2.314-2.316. Rumor has it that basically the ARC was a derivative of the LBC concept and the factory wanted something that was new and unique that didn't require a lot of thought. The big boys are looking for an edge and the ARC gave them that unique approach. Of course you can make ARC out of Grendel cases just using your die and a trimmer. My barrels are 9 or 10 twist. I see no reason to go faster as with the polygon rifling it's like a one step faster rate anyway. I also feel like the use of the heavies is not rally needed but some guys like them. Factory ARC's ar twisted pretty tight at 7 twist from what I see. Just a quick overview for you. BTW IMR 8208 is THE powder for the LBC. Greg |
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Post by masterknot on Jun 5, 2023 7:19:26 GMT -8
Thanks for the warm welcome, and great info. However, The ARC is out of the question, it never interested me due it's reduced case capacity... if anything, I wish to go in the opposite direction hence mention of The Turbo 40, and Grinch (but would rather not bang-up my hands, or worse, fumbling through that case forming process). The 6mmAR is Robert Whitley's cartridge, which is, to my understanding, simply a necked down Grendel... all case dimensions the same other than neck diameter. It seams to me, this would make life relatively easy. I'm wondering how the .243LBC might differ from The 6AR. The former chamber is offered by BHW, and the latter would have to be custom reamed - not desirable. I think it boils down to the comparative ease of case forming between the two, so I'm seeking info for the production of proper dies for ether. Whidden said they'll make anything, they just prefer I send a fire-formed case for their dimensional reference. This makes my goal that much more complicated to reach. www.youtube.com/watch?v=1MPwMD8jwL4 Attachments:
6mmAR Page.html (47.71 KB)
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Post by GLSHOOTER on Jun 5, 2023 8:40:15 GMT -8
Thanks for the warm welcome, and great info. However, The ARC is out of the question, it never interested me due it's reduced case capacity... if anything, I wish to go in the opposite direction hence mention of The Turbo 40, and Grinch (but would rather not bang-up my hands, or worse, fumbling through that case forming process). The 6mmAR is Robert Whitley's cartridge, which is, to my understanding, simply a necked down Grendel... all case dimensions the same other than neck diameter. It seams to me, this would make life relatively easy. I'm wondering how the .243LBC might differ from The 6AR. The former chamber is offered by BHW, and the latter would have to be custom reamed - not desirable. I think it boils down to the comparative ease of case forming between the two, so I'm seeking info for the production of proper dies for ether. Whidden said they'll make anything, they just prefer I send a fire-formed case for their dimensional reference. This makes my goal that much more complicated to reach. www.youtube.com/watch?v=1MPwMD8jwL4 The 6 AR and the LBC are virtually identical in case size. Slight variation in chamber dimensions like throat diameter and freebore. The 6AR actually came out about 6 months after Ritch Johnson designed the LBC for BHW. Performance is identical. Case forming for either is the same. I'll be glad to send you three cases if you want to go have Whidden do the dies. Also if you go with the LBC I have a ton of loading data for you to evaluate. Greg Greg |
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Post by masterknot on Jun 5, 2023 9:17:17 GMT -8
Now we're talkin'! This idea, I like... should've signed up here long ago.
I looked at The CH4D site, and did not see The .243LBC in their catalog... I'm not decided on who to have make dies, open to suggestion in this regard.
I spoke with Ritch over the telephone a few years ago, when first looking into this project - particular cartridge family - when I stumbled onto his site. He told me how to reload it, but his words flew over my head at the time, but planted seeds. What I do remember most from the conversation was, he told me, sternly, that his polygonal rifling differed from BHW's, but did not explain how. Can you tell me?
In regards to a seating die, it sounds like I don't need to have one made, but I don't quite understand the process... "Hornady generic die"?
Further Questions:
-Do you think I can have a straight taper, portless 15-platform barrel made by BHW?
-What barrel length is optimal for this cartridge?
-In a bolt action AR - all same, but no gas assist - does the 60,000 load psi apply?
-And does The .243LBC use The Type 2 Bolt?
Thank you
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Post by GLSHOOTER on Jun 27, 2023 13:23:57 GMT -8
Now we're talkin'! This idea, I like... should've signed up here long ago. I looked at The CH4D site, and did not see The .243LBC in their catalog... I'm not decided on who to have make dies, open to suggestion in this regard. I spoke with Ritch over the telephone a few years ago, when first looking into this project - particular cartridge family - when I stumbled onto his site. He told me how to reload it, but his words flew over my head at the time, but planted seeds. What I do remember most from the conversation was, he told me, sternly, that his polygonal rifling differed from BHW's, but did not explain how. Can you tell me? In regards to a seating die, it sounds like I don't need to have one made, but I don't quite understand the process... "Hornady generic die"? Further Questions: -Do you think I can have a straight taper, portless 15-platform barrel made by BHW? -What barrel length is optimal for this cartridge? -In a bolt action AR - all same, but no gas assist - does the 60,000 load psi apply? -And does The .243LBC use The Type 2 Bolt? Thank you Not sure how I missed this. You have to call CH4D direct on the LBC die. Generic in that Hornady floating chamber dies are done by specific caliber not by cartridge. BHW can turn you a profile per per request. You need to deal directly with them on that for pricing. Length depends on use. For long range target work a 24 works for me. For coyotes and a suppressor an 18 might be the ticket. Really your preference. I would not stress the AR bolt above maybe 55,000 unless I had one "enhanced" with bigger lugs like the YOUNG Manufacturing bolt I helped to develop. The 243 LBC uses a TYPE ! bolt of 0.125 deoth like the 7.62X38. Greg |
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