What caliber?

[potbelliedyeti]

Hey all,
Doing some thinking and my 20" barrel that came with my first AR is not the greatest on accuracy, though my scope is JUNK! With that being said say I wanted to scrap it and buy a new barrel, this past summer I got into longer range stuff HUGE! Granted its only 400 yards but for me up here that's a far poke! My question is what caliber suits my long range / hunting purposes? Barrel length? So on and so forth I am very open minded and am greatful for any and all posts.

Thanks,
Yeti

[Deleted]

Hi,
Long range officially starts at 600 yards but 400 is a challenge already for many ARs, specially if you want to hunt something at those ranges.

So what is the max range you want for target?
What is the max range you want to hunt and what type of game?
Is cost and issue?

And if you are willing to reload then you probably have many other options as someone already asked.

[Deleted]

Wow.Lots of strong opinions here.
You need to relax buddy. I mention this as a curiosity not to criticize or diminish the merits of anyone. If you are close to this forum and you are trying to prevent BHW customers form further participation you are doing a great job.

400 yards is a good distance I agree. The most important thing is to have fun.

In order to be constructive, here some factual data from using and comparing all the below calibers first hand experience. A comparative analysis of the following AR-15 calibers/upper options in terms of trajectory, accuracy, reliability, terminal effectiveness and pros&cons...

204 ruger
223 REM
6x45 / 6mm-223REM
7.62x39
5.45x39
300 AAC Blackout (I ordered a barrel for a new build but it is in back order so I am using the manufacturer data for now)
6.8SPC
6.5 Grendel

Varmint rounds
Initial testing shows .204 and .223 varmint rounds with low grain bullets are hard to beat in trajectory as they shoot very flat but also their potential for other applications is limited based on the characteristics of the bullets.


The .223 rem can be a great white tail round for moderate range. The military 62gr new penetrators show a huge improvement over the early designs. 75gr TAP (tactical) loads are extrevelly effective. Value packs of 55gr loads can be found below $300 for 1K rounds (Federal, UMC, AE, Priv, PMC, etc...)
Most of the new loads are very different from the loads in 1965 when the AR was introduced. TSX 70gr bullets and Swift 75gr bullets are devastating as many other that offer great hunting alternatives. The best bullets with the ballistic coefficients are mostly dedicated to match/target and require, along with some of the best hunting bullets, 1:8 and 1:7 rate of twist. Magazines has been adapted like DPMS VLD to allow single stack feeding of long OAL both in standard casing and AI offering.
High grain rounds offer good speed and retain energy better therefore carrying more lethal puch even well past the 400yards.

The 300 AAC Blackout
The round is a very easy conversion with lots of possibilities, including subsonic loads. I have not been able to test this barrel as I ordered a barrel for a new build but it is in back order so I am using the manufacturer data for now. This system is very simple as it only requires the barrel. Bolt, magazines, everyhing else is the same as the standard AR. The website lists an interesting comparative of some popular calibers but I think they missed (on purpose) some of the other very attractive alternatives. The information in the comparative is not 100% accurate.
300aacblackout.com/

The load is virtualy the same as the 300 wisper recently released by hornady....
www.hornady.com/store/300-Whisper-110gr-vmax

The round is hard hitting at close range and initial reports are of a very accurate round but it looses energy rapidly for mid range due to the poor ballistics of the round.

7.62x39
There are many great offerings from manufactures that will allow AR-15 enthusiasts to shoo the Russian classic military rounds. These rounds are not impressive ballistically but they offer a nice alternative to consume inexpensive surplus and value packs that make them a great round for plinkin and fun. A good quality SP or HP round can be a good hunting round for short-moderate range. Like the blackout at short range is very effective but in longer distances it suffers from the poor ballistics of the round.
This round shoots well out of the AR but it was really designed for the AK-47 system. This requires new barrel, bolt and also special magazines.

6.8SPC
The 6.8 Special was a response to the need to provide more terminal effectiveness, specially at closer ranges and deliver more energy on target.
The system was developed in a joint effort with special Operations advice to provide a platform with ammunition that handles very similar to the standard AR but delivers more power on target. It can also be very accurate.
While this is a nice improvement over the 223 round and even the Russian round it suffers from some of the same consequences of using a higher caliber lower grain type of bullet, it looses momentum faster. This can be also a great hunting round and some uppers are very accurate. Definitely a serious round.
It also needs a new barrel, new bolt and special/adapted AR magazines.

6x45 / 6mm-223REM
For me this is one of the best options for the AR-15. It uses a new 6mm barrel but the rest is the same, same bolt same magazines. The concept is old but very simple, neck up a .223 case to 6mm and then you land in one of the best bullet departments there is for both the target and hunting shooter.
It also makes it legal in those places where (for an inexplicable reason) the .223 rem is not allowed for white tail hunting.
The 6x45 provides a 20-30% improvement over the parent .223 rem case and makes it flat shooting, hard hitting, far reach round.
The round is extremely accurate and it won many matches back in the late 60's and early 70's before the BR round came along.

6.5 Grendel
This round uses an improved version of the PPC cartridge. It offers the possibility to launch extremely good bullets at decent speeds making an
excellent target and hunting round. This round doesn't shoot as flat as other more exotic casings but the bullets can travel far due to the high ballistic coefficient and stay supersonic delivering very good accuracy. The terminal effectiveness of the round is a very nice improvement over the original AR round and it has a very nice following from enthusiasts and special purpose use.
This system uses new barrels and it needs new bolt and special magazines.
It makes it along with the 6x45 a great alternative for those shooters that want to reach further while retaining energy due to the very good bullets that can be used.

There are other awesome offerings that I will summarize int his post like the 6mmAR, 6mmAR turbo, and some thumpers like the 50 bewolf, 450 bushmaster, and 540 socom but I just wanted to get started with some of the maybe most popular options and that I have been able to shoot.

This post is for interested people to learn about the different options and not to demote, criticize but to learn about possibilities so we do not end up in one of the threads like 9mm vs. 40cal, AR vs. AK, Shotgun vs rifle, MINE VS YOURS. All those senseless unfunded arguments that teach nothing and lead nowhere. Every round, firearm, tactic has a purpose and some advantages and disadvantages over others so we cannot and should not compare apples with oranges but learn how those options work so we can make the best choice based on our needs, likes and dislikes.


Here some charts....

[Deleted]

Thanks for your kind words.
My attitude has been always of collaboration and positive. I have no intention to dislocate the nice threads you have in your forum and argue with anyone and I do not make comments that could be offensive. As I said I mention 600 yards as a curiosity not to criticize or diminish the merits of anyone so I am sorry if it came otu that way but I was surprised someone quickly jumps at this comment. Nevertheless, I think I understand the adversity to new folks with everything else is going on online. If I am wrong about my statement you can ask and discuss vs. asking me who I am. I know who I am. I am putting time in this forum that I started to like bringing some info. I realize firearm enthusiasts are opinionated and have biased based on their preferences and experiences and I love that. Never change that.
If this is a forum that only allows Q and answers from 2 or 3 folks then I might not stand a chance of ever making a comment or posting an experience w/o being bashed.
Anyway I just want to express my admiration for your products and keep doing the good job. A friend that is a great fun of yours showed me his AR's with your barrels and until that moment I didn't even know you existed or that you even had a forum that I considered it was a very nice discovery.

Thanks.

[potbelliedyeti]

Holy moly lots of GREAT info there! Thank you kindly for the posts! Not really sure who you are talking to I only see your posts along with mine....I'll admit 400 yards is a poke though yesterday I just setup a steel swinger at 500 yards. 600 would be sweet but my range area doesn't allow for it. I was just kind of tossing that question out there to see some of the responses I would get. 500 is the longest, probably not going to use as deer rifle more on the plinking side is all and cost is never an issue if you save enough ;D I do have a reloader but haven't unpacked it yet....still reading about it. Again thanks for the posts very much appreciate you taking the time to posts that great info!

[Brandon Sneed]

Yeti:

Just remember that those tables are for mostly factory loads for specific length barrels and if you choose to reload that you work up from min and find the right spot for your gun. As always with reloading safety first.

[potbelliedyeti]

Oct 3, 2011 6:38:11 GMT -8 Brandon Sneed said:

Yeti:

Just remember that those tables are for mostly factory loads for specific length barrels and if you choose to reload that you work up from min and find the right spot for your gun. As always with reloading safety first.

I thought it was going to be easy when I first started reading about reloading I was excited. Then I heard a few horror stories of people triple charging a few rounds and a few rounds with none....if your careful and take your time I would assume this is hard to do but if your lazy I could see it happening. Im still reading about reloading everyday I still need more euqipment but it will be a fun adventure.

[GLSHOOTER]

Oct 3, 2011 8:31:02 GMT -8 potbelliedyeti said:

Oct 3, 2011 6:38:11 GMT -8 Brandon Sneed said:

Yeti:

Just remember that those tables are for mostly factory loads for specific length barrels and if you choose to reload that you work up from min and find the right spot for your gun. As always with reloading safety first.

I thought it was going to be easy when I first started reading about reloading I was excited. Then I heard a few horror stories of people triple charging a few rounds and a few rounds with none....if your careful and take your time I would assume this is hard to do but if your lazy I could see it happening. Im still reading about reloading everyday I still need more euqipment but it will be a fun adventure.

If you follow the books and give some attention to detail reloading is not that hard. Manuals are your friend and the ability to call/ask the publishers is a big plus.

Don't wildly follow stuff published by the average shooter who has no access to the testing equipment. The internet tends to "expand" performance on guys special loads and concoctions. Be cautious with all of it. If a guy posts a load that is outside the parameters of published data be VERY cautious.

Choice of powder can prevent double charges and empty cases the result of inattention to detail. Both are controllable by the reloader.

Reloading is fun and enjoyable and saves money. The next step up is hand loading where you work up specific loads to attain a goal. This might involve extra case prep, bullet seating changes or , at times, non-published powder or loads. Look CLOSELY at the LBC data here. You aren't seeing any numbers put up for charge weights You are seeing powder types. Each of these rifles is a law unto themselves. I would share my data with someone on an E-mail or PM but you won't see me put it up for the world to misunderstand or mis use.

Any loads I do publish on the net are checked against loading manuals and I am comfortable with the numbers and results. I think you will find the Pro Staff very supportive of the newbies and oldies on here.

Ritch has been loading a few years and I have dabbled at it for right on 36 myself. I am still learning as is he. Billy does not have all those years but he has a great knowledge base. If we throw something out feel free to question it. None of us will intentionally let you come in to harms way.

We have all dabbled with non-mainstream loading and between the three of us you have almost a century of experience.

Have no fear the Black Hole crew is here.

Greg

[Deleted]

Plenty of good advice in those notes.

With any caliber keep in mind that most of ammo and bullet manufactures exaggerate their numbers a litle or might not even publish barrel length or simple atmospherics, let alone they might tell you anything about the specific conditions how those numbers got gathered.
Also keep in mind that not all the brass is the same, the same casing changes from brand to brand in capacity, strength, and overall performance.
Same thing with the bullets a 6mm 90gr bullet from one maker doesn't behave the same as a 6mm 90gr bullet from other maker.
Internal, external and terminal ballistics is a complex world with all sort of variables.

Any information that you find in the internet should not be used as-is and the only and single source for any loading data decisions. So I suggest the same thing that I suggest to anyone, find a good reloading book or two, read it from end to end. Then find the loading data from the powder manufacturer and verify with the bullet manufacturer, books and/or other reliable sources. If everything makes sense then go and start making a few loads and START LOW. Then after a few loads read the books again.

Work yourself the loads up SLOWLY and if you see any signs of pressure then back out. Signs of pressure include extrusion marks in the brass, flattened or cratered primers, split necks, stretch marks in the brass and the math behind physics itself cannot be forgotten. After you start reloading, get experienced and before you try any 'hot' hunting loads make sure you verify all your data and you know the brass and exactly how much pressure that brass and gun can take.

I have seen folks mistakenly loading 'secret recipe' hot loads that then were not done properly and used in brass or firearm from another time in history that was not designed to take that.

Whatever anyone gives as 'good' loading data should be questioned and verified as indicated above and in many cases that means one should start no more than 10% below the advertised max load. It only takes one variable like for example a bullet seating too deep, neck wall thickness in the brass, etc.. to turn something that might be safe to test, to something that could end in disaster.

See if in your area or your local firing range you can find mentoring from somebody senior to reloading like local like a veteran Bench Rest shooter or seasoned hunter. In my area we all do that, I give mentoring as much as I receive from other guys.

Good luck.

[blackjack308]

A major consideration in caliber selection is cost of components. The difference between a common chambering as .223 and 6.5 Grendel can be significant if you are shooting high volume to get and maintain a competitive level. Setting up multiple toolheads and diesets can also get pretty spendy. The .223 may only take for example 25 gr of powder per squeeze, where a .308 will take 40gr, and with the price of powder even in bulk it really adds up. Brass for .223,especially if you are using new Lake City may be $65 per 500 where 6.5 Grendel may cost that per 100. That being said, I still have AR chamberings in multiple calipers, though have tried to maintain common bullet weights and powders to get some crossover and bulk cost savings (300 AAC Blackout/.308 for example).

[Deleted]

Excellent point! I think that one gets good at anything with some good direction and by simple repetition. Repetition in all shooting disciplines means lots of rounds and barrel changes so cost / unit should be considered.
Additionally, if one is really serious, I would add quality training, often overlooked and highly underestimated.
Training courses and drills with experts are not cheap but it is worth every dollar. Uncle Sam paid for the biggest portion of my training but still today I sign up for LR classes, weekly IDPA drills, skeet classes here and there and any areas where I want to improve.
As much as I enjoy the 338 lapua I cannot shoot even half of what I would like to with that one, but lately I am enjoying the 6x45 a lot that is extremely cost effective, accurate and is doing pretty well at many ranges.

In the skeet competition we have a saying.... you know you are getting good when over the years you had spent the tag price of your brand new car in shooting and classes.