SAVAGE and BHW chosen for 6.5 CREEDMOOR build.

[pbcrisp]

Hello, I think this is my first post.
(I have 2 BHW barrel AR’s so far, but this post is not about those…or the third barrel that I convinced a friend to buy… or the 243/264LBC barrel that will go on a long range AR build next.)

I am putting together my first custom bolt action build. Custom might not be the right word for this.

This rifle is starting with the following intentions in this order of priority:

1. Sub-1/2-MOA precision
2. Long Range precision, out to 1000 yds and possibly beyond.
3. Reduced recoil, compared to 308.
4. Better ballistic trajectories than 308 out to 1000 and preferably beyond.
5. Short enough barrel to fit the full rifle into a 42” rifle case (Plano, Pelican)
6. Long Range hunting capable in most states (some restrict caliber to .250 and over)

I stressed over caliber selection for about 6 months…while waiting for just the right time to order the barrel.

In goal #2, I mention long range precision. Given just the right load, you can shoot a 223 bolt gun out to 1000 yards…supersonic. However, wind calls become very important. It is on the edge of sub-sonic. Velocity variance due to reloading practices can cause vertical stringing.

I almost went with 243LBC/264LBC, but…the 243/264LBC certainly doesn’t have better ballistics than 308 out to 1000. I use the 243/264 interchangeably, as they are very similar. Very light recoil, cheap on powder, and…both use MOA corrections up in the 30’s out to 1000 yards. (this paragraph is not well written, but hopefully the point gets across)

I decided to go with the 6.5 Creedmoor. (I might have gone with the 6mm Creedmoor, and given up on goal #6 above…but, BHW doesn’t chamber in 6.0C at this time, and 6.0C brass was not available at the time of the barrel order - 22 JAN 15…thank you Shot Show discount)

6.5 Creedmoor (6.5C) fits all the caliber goals above. It doesn’t have as good of a recoil reduction compared to 308, but will do just fine.


SO, I have a question…

I am seeking advice regarding bullet selection.
123 AMAX vs 123 Nosler CC.

Would either bullet be better suited to the BHW reamer specs? Throat? Rifling?

Thanks for reading.
-PB

[GLSHOOTER]

Welcome to the board. Well thought out generally. My assessments are different than yours on the 243LBC but then I've been working with it.

Best bullet? Which ever one shoots best. We've had tremendous luck with the Noslers. Barrels will certainly let you know thier preference.

I think you have a stellar build planned. Keep us posted.

Greg

[pbcrisp]

Greg,
I have followed your work and posts regarding the LBC barrels from BHW. Very impressive work and write-ups. I am trying to talk myself out of a 22-LBC at some point I might end up with one of each: 264, 243, 224.

Regarding the 243-LBC - I ran the ballistic calcs using a 107 with a G1 of 0.53 and a muzzle velocity of 2750. Granted, those are AR-bolt face numbers, not true bolt action pressures. I got a remaining velocity of 1330 and a ~33 MOA of adjustment from a 100 yd zero.

[pbcrisp]

This will be my wife's first long range gun, and I want to make things as easy as possible. Unfortunately, everything is a compromise. The LBC family has reduced recoil, and inherent accuracy in case design and proportions (PPC anyone?). One of the things the LBC family doesn’t have is a stock bolt face from Savage. Yes, this is going to be a $2000 rifle. Yes, I can order a bot face from PTG. Yes, the $50 bolt face is a pittance compared to the overall cost. I almost did an LBC bolt gun. Almost.

The 6.5C was in the running against the 6.5x47 (no BHW reamer) and the…well, that’s about it. I considered a 22-250AI running heavies, but that doesn’t do the hunting versatility and there isn’t a BHW reamer.

I ran the numbers for the 6.5C using G7 profiles in Hornady’s online Ballistic Calculator. Granted, these numbers are based off of estimated muzzle velocities…generated using QL and bouncing the results off real-world reports. None of which is the same as having the gun in hand and firing over my own Chrono…but, sometimes you make WAG’s.

With the 140-amax going 2800 FPS:
The bullet is still going ~1400+ fps at 1k, with ~29.5 MOA of drop from a 100 zero.
Yes, 2800 fps is optimistic. The barrel I ordered is a 21”…we’ll see.

With the 123 amax, I ran numbers using 3000 fps.
The bullet is still going 1400+ fps at 1k, but uses only ~26-27 MOA of drop.
I think 3k fps is doable. And that is pretty flat shooting. My hope is that the flat shooting nature of the 123 load will make up for some of the velocity ES coming out of the reloading room (my fault)…which translate to vertical stringing out at distance.

I am itching to order some bullets. Nosler over-run 123-CC’s are 18c per trigger pull right now. Take off some military discount, and those are some cheap bullets. But, I cant see ordering 1000 of the until I know that the barrel likes them, and the listed BC of .510 is close.

Have you/anyone shot the 123-CC’s out of BHW 1:8 twist .264 barrels? At what velocity, and with what results?

Random second question:
6-24 scope…but which one:

Millet LRS - SFP MILDOT ($450)
Bushnell Elite Tactical – SFP MILDOT ($620)
Bushnell Elite Tactical - G2 FFP ($750)
Vortex Viper PST – EBR reticle, SFP ($750)
Nikon Monarch 3 – Fine Cross Hair, SFP ($500)…this one isn’t really in the running, but it might be.

Thoughts?

[GLSHOOTER]

2800 with the 123's Noslers. Bug holes.

Punch up a 95 SMK at 3150 in the 243LBC. A minute means nothing at 1000.

You've got your math working. Looking forward to seeing how you do. Good luck with getting the speed out of a 21" tube and 140's.

Scopes I favor the Vortex.

Greg

[pbcrisp]

Got a phone call from BHW tech today. The barrel might get put on the lathe soon for Tapering.

This will be a 21” barrel…which is not a selectable length from the website’s order form…but, if you give them a call, you will find BHW folks to be QUITE helpful and friendly. I have been nothing but impressed with the customer service thus far.

21” was chosen due to a number of factors:
I had considered a 20” barrel, but wanted as much length as possible. My Savage 10-TR has a 24” barrel and is a bit unwieldy. My son’s 11-THXP has a 22” barrel, and seems to have nice proportions. However, it BARELY fits in the 42” Plano Gun-Guard case that I bought for him. The recoil pad is against the left side of the case, and there is ½” of foam in front of the muzzle end of the barrel.

Well, as a 22” barrel leaves little margin for error in stock length of pull adjustment, I decided on a 21” barrel. Some little part of that decision was based on the fact that it is a non-standard length.

Also, as I was planning for a pretty heavy varmint taper barrel, short length reduces weight a little. Long barrel are heavy. Not only is there more material…that material is further away from the shooter. I am hoping this rifle has decent balance. Not ‘off-hand’ kind of balance. Just a shooter’s perception off a bipod. TBD on the balance idea.

21” length
2” chamber area
Straight taper from there
0.920” at the muzzle
Threaded 5/8x24

Where else can you get a full custom barrel made for that kind of price!? If you look at the specs above…we are talking full custom. Custom length. Custom taper. Made to order. Threaded. That’s awesome.

[GLSHOOTER]

Feb 18, 2015 18:36:55 GMT -8 pbcrisp said:

Got a phone call from BHW tech today. The barrel might get put on the lathe soon for Tapering.

This will be a 21” barrel…which is not a selectable length from the website’s order form…but, if you give them a call, you will find BHW folks to be QUITE helpful and friendly. I have been nothing but impressed with the customer service thus far.

Where else can you get a full custom barrel made for that kind of price!? If you look at the specs above…we are talking full custom. Custom length. Custom taper. Made to order. Threaded. That’s awesome.

And there you have it.

My Model 12 with a 26" 243 LBC heavy with a .805 TC crown in the heavy laminated stock and a 6.5X20 Viper weighs 12.2. Light for F-Class but doable.

I can't wait to see how yours does.

Greg

[pbcrisp]

This 6.5 Creedmoor rifle will sit in the second full custom rifle stock made in my garage.

The first was made and given away as a 70th birthday present. Good friend of mine and I designed and CNC carved the stock. Most of the CAD work is his. All of the CAM work is mine. Final hand sanding and finish are his work. I contributed a few points to the general design theme, but most of the final design is a product of my good friend…a thankful son building his father a gift for his birthday.

That 1st rifle is a 220-Swift…with a long throat for shooting heavies. It regularly prints 5 shot groups in the 1’s, with a current best group under 0.1” at 100 yds. It has also printed a sub-4” group at 1000 yds…first time out, with minimal load development.

[pbcrisp]

Pics of the 220-swift rifle stock...and a screen capture from the CAD work for the 6.5 CREEDMOOR stock.

220SWIFT rifle stock...26" barrel. Heavy Varmint taper. Full custom CAD design and CAM work. Cut out in my garage. Hand finished. This was the first try. There was a 25% prototype run of one side of this cut out in 2x10 pine. Then, some further CAD refinements...and straight into the final product. Given this was the first time undertaking a project of this scope, I think it came out great.



Close up of the grip area. The wood is a Boyds blank. Royal Jacaranda. The grip area is probably the most interesting portion of the final stock. The cheek riser is also quite unique. We cut the stock out of the blank on my home-brew CNC machine...and he did a lot of hand sanding and a spectacular job on the hand-rubbed oil finish.



This is the current state of the CAD model for the 6.5 CREEDMOOR stock. This is very preliminary. The cheek riser is not built. The final dimensions are not set. The width and shape of several areas are still being negotiated (this will be my wife's rifle). The stock will be carved out of Tiger/Quilted maple. Even this part is still in flux, as I have not settled on a solid block, or a laminating process to increase rigidity and reduce the risk of warping.

The action and barrel are correct in proportion and color. The barrel is 21" long in the model and the Taper and Muzzle Diameter is as ordered. Regarding proportion...I have not settled on a final fore-end length or width. In the previous stock, we were limited by the width of the Boyds blank....which is almost exactly 60mm (2.36"). I think the fore-end on the above stock is 55mm (2.16") ...we cut 2.5mm into each side of the blank. I would actually like to go out to something like 65mm...maybe 2.5" Thoughts?



Close up of the grip area of the current CAD model. This is currently planned to be worked into a thumbhole design. As I get more details nailed down, I will try to keep updated pictures posted.

[dinosdeuce]

Very nicely done.  I'm not a wood stock guy but that is a fine looking stock!

[pbcrisp]

This will be a post of mostly pictures.

The first is a screen capture of the CAD files.
This is a top-down few onto 3 stocks.
The Brown stock is the CAD model from the 220-swift in the previous pictures...this model is used in reference while building the 6.5 Creedmoor stock.
The middle stock, in yellow, is a recent version made by the CAD expert on this project, a good friend of mine. His father got the 220-swift rifle as a gift.
The bottom stock, the gold one, is a modification of the yellow model. Essentially a version of that yellow stock.



This next screen capture is just an angled few of those same stock in that same order.
It is quite obvious, even in this view, the intricacy of the brown stock model. There is lots of detailed work within that CAD file.
The other 2 stocks reflect both the early stage of design that they are in...and the different approach taken in the design. Please don't take this the wrong way. The first stock was designed by an engineer for his dad. The other 2 stocks (essentially copies of each other) reflect the intended recipient.



Here is a closer view of the 2 versions of the 6.5 Creedmoor stock. The differences between each version is very slight.



This next picture shows one of the areas of the stock that is in current development. The very front of the fore-end is a very visible point of character for a stock. The yellow stock shows an approach to finishing off the front of the stock. The gold stock had nothing there...because I haven't gotten to it yet. I am certainly welcome to ideas.



Side view (X-axis) of the front of the fore-end. Again, I welcome and ideas.



Looking straight down the pipe.
Now this is less about the shape of the 'nose' of the stock...and more about the shape of the bottom of the fore-end. In my opinion, the stock is too beefy. However, what might look awful in CAD...might look great when cut into real wood...and the opposite is also possible. What looks great in CAD...might not work when it gets cut out. TBD.



I hope this post doesn't wander too far...I am moving back to the grip area.
The shape of the Grip and Tang areas are both critical and hard to get just right.
This is a side view showing the 2 current versions. The gold stock is in front, and the yellow stock can be seen behind it.



Closer view. The grip-to-tang flow in the gold stock is actually rendered in silver. This is the section that I worked on most recently.



Flipped around, so you are viewing 'from the other side'.
The yellow stock is now in the way, and the differences in the gold stock can be seen.



Angled view. This really shows some of the curves in the gold stock better. The straighter lines of the yellow stock are also pretty obvious. Preference?
(The action in this picture rendered as bright orange...I think I had my mouse hovering will hitting the screen capture.)





Again, let me say that I welcome feedback. I will try to address any critiques that are given. I will try to not take offense if you call my work ugly. Please don't take offense if I only consider your advice, but don't implement it.
Thanks for reading so far.
-PB

[GLSHOOTER]

Very intersting how that works. I kind of feel like TRON has invaded the screen.

Greg

[pbcrisp]

Its been almost a month since I have updated this.
Due to coaching kid's basketball practice, and work, and life...I haven't been able to spend much time on this.
Couple business trips later...you can get an amazing amount of CAD work done sitting at the airport.

Latest version:



The Thumbhole has been built and cut out.
The Riser has been built and cut out.
The Fore-end has received some vent holes.

In order:

A close up of the Thumbhole cutout. This was an interesting shape to build...in order to get the cutout to flow correctly.



A close up of the riser. The friend that designed the 220-swift stock in the previous posts built this part. It has a nice side profile, and also includes the overall shape guidance my wife requested...VERY nice work building this piece.



Taken from profile, the stock is starting to come together...I think it has some pretty decent proportions at this point.



I think the grip area and the thumbhole will be design features that capture the most attention. They look awesome in CAD.



The Fore-end and bottom of the action area are still being refined.
The complete action files, to include bottom metal, trigger assembly, trigger guard...and even the pillars will be rendered in CAD. This will allow for some verification of the initial measurements used for the Action area of the CAD model.



Any thoughts, comments, critiques or input is very welcome.
Thanks for reading so far.
-PB

[pbcrisp]

Having a good friend to work on these kinds of projects is awesome.
IF that friend happens to be really good at CAD is even better.
IF that friend also happens to have a 3d printer? yeah...I consider myself blessed.

With the previous stock...the one we built for his dad...the 220-swift in some of the other pictures...we did a real poor job making a prototype out of 2x10 pine lumber. It was both a learning experience and a bit of a disaster. LOTS of hours were spent watching the CNC mill cut the shape out...only to realize things needed to be changed.

Now, using the 3d printer, he printed out the grip area of the 6.5 Creedmoor stock design in 6 hours.

Printer laying the 'ground work' :



Printer about 35% done:



About 70% done:



And, the 'final' product:



My wife was able to check for grip fit and comfort and all the other guess words one uses when trying to get a concrete answer for something that is pretty much a none concrete opinion.

I need to build a bit of a grove along each side of the top of the grip...
One on the Left for the thumb to rest in.
One on the Right for the trigger finger to rest in.
Those mods should allow for better feel and consistent hand/grip relationship.

The thumbhole shape, which is described as a 'peanut' by my kids, needs to be rotated back at the bottom...making a bit more solid surface for the palm of the trigger hand to rest.
Other than those mods, I would call the 'grip area' prototype a success. As a prototype, I'd call it a complete success. As a CAD model, we learned that tweeks need to be made.
Oh, and in the background of the last picture, you can see a small section of the curly/tiger maple board I acquired on Saturday.

Thanks for reading so far.
Any and all comments and critiques are very welcome.
-PB

[theshotty]

I know this is a slightly older topic but I figured I would weigh in. I have a factory savage barrel I just shot out but at 22" I was getting 3090 fps with the 123 amax and re17. I am in the process of researching barrels and just found this site again after a few years.